What do you think? Please

[NewfieMama]

the breeder we are talking to has CH and that is where we will get our female. our Male comes from a very reputable line with CH also. But I guess she would be considered a BYB. Although she has all the health clearances. Cant a puppy from a BYB be shown? The breeder we are getting our female im sure would be open to mentor me but we live 2000 miles away.

I would never take on breeding without a mentor that I really trusted. With that in mind, I do think there are breeders out there whose mentors are far away, geographically, but very, very involved in their work and progress.

I've never been through breeding, pregnancy, whelping etc. with a dog but if you read in the breeder's forum on this board you'll see some hair raising stories, many with bitter/sweet endings and tons of heartbreak and pain, as well as monetary loss. I don't think I have the strength for it.

Good luck in your decision!

 

[Jeannie]

. Cant a puppy from a BYB be shown?

Yes it can be shown as long as you have AKC papers (assuming you want to show AKC) and the pup does not have limited registration. This does not mean the dog will do well. If the dog does not meet the breed standard you will find out soon enough.

Maybe your breeder, who is so far away, could guide you toward a breeder closer to you to be a mentor.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

Not always. I got Adam and Chase on open registration with no co-ownership. I didn't know either breeder. Maybe it was my references. (I use to work for one of the better known kennels.) I don't know but neither asked for co-ownership or limited registration. Both of these breeders show and win on a national level. Adam's breeders are very well known and have bred/shown many national champions.

But you were planning on showing your newfs, not just buying them for breeding purposes.

 

[sara722003]

This is a painful topic for people like me, who adore Breed Standard dogs, but don't want to go thru the years of expense, education, learning, and back breaking of carting crates, tables, and grooming tools into arenas and spend our last dollars on hotels, gas, and entering shows where we are obviously diss'ed by regular competitors in breed rings. Been there, done that for the last 12 years while I fulfilled my BMD contract. Not doing it with Newfs. Didn't have to do it with Newfs 35 years ago when we entered the breed, with a stupendous show quality (who took Best of Group down in Houston 30 years ago) dog that the breeder trusted to us. But we were/are dog maniacs.

Breeders have No Idea who they are selling their dogs to. The best ones set the bar really high, see if the families are willing to jump through the hoops, spend the $$, show their dogs, get conformation that they have excellent standards. Then they can pull back on their contracts, but only after they know the owners are doing it for the reason of perpetuating excellence in Breed Standards, not lining their own pockets or making a business for themselves.

My opinion only. But I've loved this breed for over 35 years, and hate it when people think they can start a breeding program without tons of knowledge and tons of expense and tons of heart ache. All those things foster starting a business....yep, you'd better be "old" to start out!

Sorry. JMHO.

 

[newflizzie]

As a puppy buyer only, I do think a breeder needs to be active in conformation AND in whatever the dog is bred to do (such as working events with newfs, or coursing/racing with basenjis). To me it means they are trying to breed to standard and breeding in betterment of what the breed is meant to do. Not just one or the other or neither. You can't guarantee lifelong health, but I wouldn't buy from a breeder that didn't fully health test. If I wanted just a loving family pet I would adopt (and that's what I've done most of my life). I hope I'm making sense, I guess bottom line is if I'm going to spend the money then I'm going after the dog that has the best shot at being healthy, of good structure and temperament and wants to do what it's meant to do and to me that is a breeder who is responsibly trying to breed the versatile dog (for whatever that might mean for a particular breed).

 

[ardeagold]

I'd suggest finding a mentor closer if you can. Ask your breeder if she knows someone who can help you in your region. Even if you don't see that person all the time, you can meet up occasionally and get her/his evaluation of your dog.

You need someone to actually LOOK at the dog, put their hands on the dog, watch it move, teach you how to groom and care for them, etc. Someone who can explain genetics and breeding to you, and can help you find people to go to working and conformation events with. Introduce you around. Help with finding a handler. Help with finding the various specialty Vets you need for all the clearances. All those things.

Your "local" mentor should keep your breeder updated too. And of course you'll still use your breeder for advice and in depth mentoring. You just need a backup friend/mentor for the local information you need, and the hands on evaluating.

You'll learn these things as you move forward with your dog(s). Then as you go on, and learn the intricacies of the breed, you'll decide whether or not the dogs you have are something you feel you should be breeding, or not.

But it takes time, money, work, and more time, money and work. And lots of devotion and determination. And as was said above, breeding Newfs is not for the faint of heart. Is it worth it to you to take a chance on losing your girl just to have a litter of "pet" puppies...just because? Newfs aren't "easy breeders" like Goldens (for example) are. You're risking a lot, so just make sure you really know what you're doing, and why you're doing it before breeding.

I don't and won't breed Newfs. I do show Cole (he's a CH), and plan on showing Frankie, and do want to get working titles on both of them ... but I do not want to breed. I don't know enough, and don't have the heart for it. I leave that up to those who know the breed MUCH better than I do. I'll just enjoy my boys and my spayed girls! The boy's breeders will decide when and if they'll be used at stud. They're co-owners and it's written in the contract. And, that's how I want it. I absolutely know that I don't have enough knowledge to make those decisions.

 

[pabusinesswoman]

Just my take from my chats....

Many old school breeders are willing to sit and talk outside of the ring if your willing to listen. I have spent many an hour on the phone with several different breeders when I was looking for my girl. I have learned a lot, but it definitely opened my eyes to how much I actually didn't know.

I considered breeding faintly until I started researching it further.

Most old school breeders are very skeptical of new folks coming into breed. Breeding seems so easy and fun to bring in our own little pups. However, breeding takes a lot of commitment, money, and dedication. A responsible breeder is going to be willing to take back any pup they produce, regardless of the circumstances. Many have it in their contracts.

Unless you come with a stellar background of breeding, doing health clearances, and wonderful knowledge of the lines most times you will be on a co-ownership. The breeder will co-own your foundation bitch with you. They would have to approve all breedings and testing prior to the actual breeding. Most breeders have the idea that they want to produce a dog from the litter that they would want to keep to put in their lines.

A responsible breeder looks at many indicators. A good one has to know lines. Just because the line is good, it does not mean that that particular dog/ bitch is a good ex. of the standard. Judges determine if your dog/ bitch meets the standard through shows.(why showing is important) Breeders then try to produce the best possible dog based upon the standard. So, one would hope that a dog and a bitch that both conform to the standard ie... have their CH would be a good start... but there is so much more than that.

The first time I met spoke to my breeder she was rattling off generations back of information on the lines... builds, heart clearances, hips, if they are landseer recessive, if they have brown in their lines,cysternia (sp?), etc. She knew the lines so well that she did not have to look anything up. It was amazing. I was speechless.. and that is a rarity for me

Knowing these backgrounds it helps significantly. Since there are no "perfect" dogs/ bitches they know what combination will hopefully produce the better dog. You obviously don't want to breed two dogs with the same fault or a dog with a bad heart murmur/ hips, etc. to propagate that issue and possible intensify its effects in future generations.

Many also look at the working end of it. Newfs are working dogs. So, a breeder who has several dogs with working titles also helps to show that many in their lines can do it all. After all.. newfs by standard are not just a pretty face. For many I have spoken to, they try to breed for a well rounded dog/ bitch whenever possible. Some strived to get working titles towards.. ie a Versatile Newf. Other were primarily into the show aspect of it.

When I mentioned the thought of breeding.. one breeder asked me to think long and hard about breeding. She said with the health problems with these dogs and their sizes, would it be responsible for me to let you just breed a litter on your own that may end up with a litter of bad hips or heart issues and you had to keep those pups all of their life and watch them suffer? Or would it be better of me to watch over you to make sure you try all means to avoid an experience like that? When I thought about what she was saying.... that one brought it home for me.

So, a BYB breeds to make money only.... the mentality .. that Dog A and Dog B are pretty cute.. I think they would produce beautiful pups that I can sell. You may get lucky and get a healthy dog with a luck of a draw.

A responsible breeder does all they possibly can to make a health dog that conforms to the standard of "What is a Newfoundland." They have to be there through the life of all dogs produced to help and be the "go to" person for any of those pups with any health issues and be willing to take all of the dogs back if a problem would arise. That is a pretty big feat.

Working with a good mentor is going to help you tremendously. Most can't just go and get that knowledge out of books.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

And seriously...if you want to be a breeder..you have to be willing to LEARN. Big time. And you had better be willing to invest some cash. One of the first things I would say is buying a male and buying a female...is not the way to start. I've been raising Newfs since the 80's..and still, most often...even though I HAVE three males...I'm using an outside stud, and paying for it...because it happens to be a better choice for that female. There is a ton more to it than having a dog that produces eggs and one that produces sperm...or even health clearances. If you have two health cleared dogs that both happen to have similar faults...they STILL should not be bred together..lots of great breeders don't even keep males..and pay to use compatible dogs when they want a litter. The choice of males is endless in this day and age with frozen semen and shipping...you can pick the perfect dog for your bitch instead of settling for what's handy!. And if you just have two dogs and keep making puppies over and over..well, that kind of defines BYB. You have no objective for improvement, you are just making puppies.
And how do you figure that out? Well, a really good place to learn is the show ring. Even if it's just a way to associate with people who DO know and will help you learn. In most cases, experienced breeders have more knowledge about a breed than the judge does...but you need to be where they are to learn and make the connections. And honestly...just coming out of having 4 intact females cycling with 3 intact males living here...I can tell you...that isn't much fun. (Unless you like listening to the boys howl all night, watching the girls do a floor show every evening, and spending all your time making sure nobody opens the wrong gate at the wrong time and lets the wrong dogs get "intimate".) Oh, and swabbing up the blood stains on the floor constantly!!!.

 

[R Taft]

I am in the process of joining the Pacific Northwest Newfoundland club. Unfortunatly I live over 200 miles away from their meetings. So I am trying to figure out how to get there for a meeting to met them and join.

You have been given lots of good info here.As to distance from everyone
:lol: just like me. I have to travel a lot to get amongst my mentors and newfie friends, most of mine are 400miles away.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

I would never take on breeding without a mentor that I really trusted.
Good luck in your decision!

And that's so true. I had a great mentor in Marg Willmott..who was not afraid to step in and say...you can't do that cuz it's STOOPID...lol. You can't do this without the knowledge, support and help of a mentor.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

I live in central oregon, and am not sure how to start to get our puppy ready for showing if we decide to do that. We don't have many shows around the area to even participate in.

Your mentor should be the breeder you buy your show pup from. That breeder has a vested interest in seeing that pup do well in the ring, and thereafter, when breeding. That breeder knows her line well and will be able to help you research pedigrees to find the best match up for your breeding. It is not generally someone you meet at a regional club.

 

[Sun Valley]

Some excellent points are being given here....Breeding is not for the faint of heart

Have you also asked yourself, what happens if you have a BIG litter of puppies and can't sell them? Are you willing and do you have facilities to care for them? Are you prepared for heart problems that may crop up and puppy buyers calling if other problem arises?Are you willing to stay up for weeks on end with a new litter?

Will you be prepared to spend thousands of dollars for an emergency C-section at an emergency clinic?

Are you familiar with the pedigree's on your Newfs your planning on breeding and know what colors or other problems that may be in their pedigree's?

Breeding isn't about just throwing 2 dogs together to have a litter. And it doesn't cost any more money to have good dogs versus mediocre dogs.

Just food for thought...)

Lou Ann

 

[bears_dad]

---

 

[Ginny]

The fact that you plan to use your 2 dogs is of concern. When you breed, you look for a stud whose pedigree and strengths will hopefully improve the faults of your bitch. You can't possibly know that your dogs will be a good match now. More times than not, that's a red flag that you've got a BYBer on your hands.

 

[bears_dad]

Do you believe to be a good breeder and not a BYB you have to show your Newfies? Do they have to be Champion at anything except being a great loving family dog? Just wondering what my new NewfNet friends think.

I'm not a breeder, but in my opinion no I don't think you have to show or have champion dogs to be a good breeder.

 

[NewfLove]

Where were you planning on getting your breeding stock from? No responsible show breeder will sell you a pup with an open registration that you can breed. So therefore, you would have to get your breeding pair from a BYB. So then you would be a BYB as well. If you want a dog that can work or swim, you can get one from the shelter. What you pay for when you buy a pup from a responsible NCA breeder, is that the pup is from parents that have met the breed standard, have health clearances, pups are cardiac cleared. etc.

Agree with every word above. I wouldn't venture in to breeding Newfs any more than I would offer to perform brain surgery on my neighbor.

Our first Newf was from a BYB. It was 18 years ago and we didn't know squat about Newfs and there was no internet and, and, and. Our sweet Allie had serious problems from the start (there is not enough space here to list them all). We didn't have children at the time, so we were able to spend the money to help her with myriad surgeries, medications, physical therapies, weekly allergy injections, trips to Texas A&M, etc., but she went through hell from her first day until her last. All because a man with two Newfs decided he was a breeder.

 

[lapage24]

As a puppy buyer only, I do think a breeder needs to be active in conformation AND in whatever the dog is bred to do (such as working events with newfs, or coursing/racing with basenjis). To me it means they are trying to breed to standard and breeding in betterment of what the breed is meant to do. Not just one or the other or neither. You can't guarantee lifelong health, but I wouldn't buy from a breeder that didn't fully health test. If I wanted just a loving family pet I would adopt (and that's what I've done most of my life). I hope I'm making sense, I guess bottom line is if I'm going to spend the money then I'm going after the dog that has the best shot at being healthy, of good structure and temperament and wants to do what it's meant to do and to me that is a breeder who is responsibly trying to breed the versatile dog (for whatever that might mean for a particular breed).

I'm right there with you Anne. Conformation and working are equally important if you're planning to breed imo. If the dog looks perfect but can't perform the work, I just don't think it meets the breed standard. How are you a working group dog when you can't do the tasks you were bred for, regardless of how conforming you look... However, as was mentioned before, a golden retriever that could do all the WD exercises is still a golden retriever. Thus, conformation is also necessary.

 

[CMDRTED]

I do not breed now. JMHO - - If you don't show, how can to determine of a dog measures up to the Breed Standard. Breeding is a VERY BIG responsibility. BYB's don't put in the effort to breed "breed Standard Dogs" they breed $$$$$$$$$ and that's it. Showing IMHO means you are dedicating yourself to provide quality, well bred pups, and their parents meet the breed standard and you are TRYING TO IMPROVE the breed. You cannot do that w/o Showing. WD,WRD,WRDX, DD, TDD is only PART of ensuring you have a quality dog. Again JMHO if you (as a Breeder) don't show, it might be the greatest swimmer and drafter in the World, but I don't want a Newf, that I cannot be sure meets breed standards, has health testing, and working titles. I want a Newf from what I call a professional Hobby Breeder, the Show, Health Test, and put performance titles on their dogs so people can see that they are breeding quality Newfs that meet the standard, are trying to better the breed by trying to eliminate medical issues, and keeping a Newf in workihng condition with the temperment and desire to work and be the cuddly Bears they are famous for being.

 

[DreamTime Newfs]

There are many many champions out there that should not be bred. You can finish almost any Newf regardless of whether or not they fit the breed standard. I have seen many Newfs finish who should not even have been shown.

 

[Newfobsessed]

There are many many champions out there that should not be bred. You can finish almost any Newf regardless of whether or not they fit the breed standard. I have seen many Newfs finish who should not even have been shown.

I've heard this too and seen it...so many Newfs are just shown at every possible show, so eventually they get the points for their championship. There are many other factors to consider, such as health clearances, temperment - sometimes revealed by other titles such as therapy dogs, working titles, etc., and the breeder - will they be there when needed. Good luck!!!