What do you think? Please

[ardeagold]

I'm not a breeder, but in my opinion no I don't think you have to show or have champion dogs to be a good breeder.

Ok, let's look at this from a different angle. For those committed to the breed, they make the ultimate investment in time, money, effort, and emotion. Their Newfs are their passion, and the amount of dedication they give to their dogs is limitless. Their families know that the Newfs come first and most are 100% supportive. They don't have many relationships outside of the dog world. They don't have time, or the inclination.

Showing and getting a CH confirms to them (and others) that they're doing something right. Getting the working titles too, tells them that their investment hasn't been futile. They've got the "proof" that they're producing good examples of the breed.

The difference between them and a breeder who doesn't do any of the above is obvious.

The dedicated, reputable breeder gives all and builds a reputation for quality and caring ... the others get a check and do nothing to insure that their buyers are getting anything more than a big, furry dog which may or may not look or act like a Newf should.

One cannot be a quality breeder without showing their dogs. Showing is the EASY part of the whole equation if you've got a good dog that conforms to the breed standard. It's not at all easy if you don't.

Have you ever wondered why some breeders don't show? Maybe because they know it would be futile. But they can really make some excuses that sound good to the novice. There is no excuse. If their dogs are good quality...then put in the time, effort and money to prove it...or at least attempt to make the effort.

Renee...I understand. But without some sort of benchmark, can you imagine what the breed would look/act like? The breed standard does have enough leeway for a subjective decision. And yes, there are politics. But you can't use those as excuses to NOT show. If it takes a dog 3 years of going out every weekend all over the country to get his/her CH, for example, they're probably not a good example of the breed. Quality breeders don't do this just for a title. They know when one of their pups isn't show quality, and they know when one is. Did they get all their titles just because of who they are or who their handlers are? We all know that plays a role. We know that the "best" dog doesn't always win...that day. But the good ones DO win a lot of days. No matter who owns or shows them.

 

[DreamTime Newfs]

One cannot be a quality breeder without showing their dogs. Showing is the EASY part of the whole equation if you've got a good dog that conforms to the breed standard. It's not at all easy if you don't.

I completely disagree. Just because a dog finishes does not mean he fits the breed standard. I have seen hundreds of poor quality Newfies obtain their championship titles. It depends on what are you live in, if you have a handler on them etc. I could probably finish my dogs in 2 weekends in some areas of the country. It is extremely competitive where I live and it can take a very long time to finish a good quality dog. I really feel that some people have unrealistic expectations of breeders.

 

[ardeagold]

Deleted due to user stupidity.

 

[DreamTime Newfs]

Are you talking to me Donna? I am not Lynn.

 

[ardeagold]

Oh Renee I'm sorry. I know you're not Lynn..but your avatar is just as beautiful! I'm going to just delete that post.

But tell me...why do YOU have the dogs you have and how did you choose them? And why are you involved with trying to better the breed...and how do you think it should be done???

 

[newflizzie]

I was not an inexperienced puppy buyer while a lot of people are and I understand what Renee is saying but I don't agree that a breeder doesn't need to show. An experienced puppy buyer would know to look at the history of the Ch. I did anyway. I wanted to know how long it took and what shows they were at - if I couldn't find out I asked and went from there. Dogs get sick or injured, people get sick or injured, some don't have the money to go every weekend etc and I get that and that is what I wanted to know. For example, I know a basenji person who it just took her female 28 shows straight to earn a point, and then I have another friend who's female basenji earned her Ch in 7 straight shows. Who do you think conforms better to the standard? Sorry, but a dog it will take years and years straight to earn a Ch and one that it took a couple of months straight at big shows is no contest to me. I would take that info and then go looking at the other things that were important to me. So, yes, I still think a breeder should show but a puppy buyer needs to dig a little deeper as well.

 

[DreamTime Newfs]

I am not saying that breeders should not show at all. However, just because a dog is a Champion does not mean that it should be bred. Again, how fast you finish the dog depends on a lot of factors other then it being a quality specimen of the breed, like the geographical area that you are showing, having the time and the money to show, if there is a handler on the dog,etc.
I have seen horrible quality dogs finish in a few weeks because of the area that they are showing.
I believe that puppy buyers need to look at the big picture and not just look for Champions in the pedigree. So many factors go into developing and maintaining a quality breeding program.

 

[Ivoryudx]

I completely disagree. Just because a dog finishes does not mean he fits the breed standard. I could probably finish my dogs in 2 weekends in some areas of the country. It is extremely competitive where I live and it can take a very long time to finish a good quality dog.

Wow, thats not very nice. IMO, if a dog finishes, he/she does fit the breed standard enough that multiple judges agree. I think I'll go with the dog who's finished in an argument about fitting the standard.

PLEASE be careful on how you write things. While it MIGHT be true that you can finish your dog/s easily in another part of the country, unless you go there and do it, you and the rest of us will never know. Sometimes those other locations look easier but they are not, because there are no majors. Sometimes travel is required and the cost is part of being a good breeder, commited to the dogs being bred.

IMO, if someone is breeding they better be showing their dogs and finishing their championships on their dogs. They also need to be putting some effort into education, rescue, working events and mentoring just as they do in producing puppies. If they are not doing this, how is the general public supposed to see them any different than a BYB?

Again...JMO...

 

[newflizzie]

I am not saying that breeders should not show at all. However, just because a dog is a Champion does not mean that it should be bred. Again, how fast you finish the dog depends on a lot of factors other then it being a quality specimen of the breed, like the geographical area that you are showing, having the time and the money to show, if there is a handler on the dog,etc.
I have seen horrible quality dogs finish in a few weeks because of the area that they are showing.
I believe that puppy buyers need to look at the big picture and not just look for Champions in the pedigree. So many factors go into developing and maintaining a quality breeding program.

The dog I was talking about who finished quick was at big shows for basenjis and has an owner/handler (trust me, this dog is going places). The other dog has a handler, all the money in the world, and went all over the country to the big B shows and still only got the 1 point in 28 straight weekend shows. They are not the same quality. I agree with you that all Ch dogs shouldn't be bred and that was my point about puppy buyers digging deeper into the Ch, but I still think that breeders need to be involved in conformation.

 

[baileydog]

To the original poster........

Why do you want to breed?
For what purpose are you wanting to produce a litter?

Just curious.........

 

[donna mote]

Following this thread has been very interesting with excellent points that should be carefully considered by anyone planning to breed.

Before deciding to become a breeder we need to ask why we are wanting to breed. As some of the breeders have mentioned, the cost that a responsible breeder puts in could be extremely high, not to mention the heartaches, sleepless nights etc. Along with the knowledge that there are so many breeders out there we know all these pups are not going to forever loving homes, and as stated, what will become of the precious pups that are still there at the end of the day.

having bred horses for many years,
my love for animals taught me the importance of quality breeding for health. performance and personality and making the decision when its right for you and you are willing to accept the responsibilities.

Everywhere we go people would ask if we would breed Brinkley and Bryanna, my quick response- NO we will not , we have Brinkley fixed and Bryanna will be once she reaches the right time. I prefer to count on a good breeder .

this having been said :
Neither of my newfs came from breeders who show on the circuit although both newfs come from show and performance backgrounds , champions on both sides. but
I would not trade either of them for a million dollar blue ribbon winner straight off the showground.

Champions do not always breed champions and non champions sometime breed the winners.

we need knowledgeable, caring breeders to continue breeding for good health , stamina , temperment and personality of our wonderful newf, but for the people who love the breed but do not feel the need to follow judged events to have someone judge whether or not they feel your newf is a perfect standing newf, the BYB when chosen carefully ,can be an excellent choice. . Mine was.


the best of luck with your decision.

 

[lilly06]

If you are really serious about breeding, I would most definitely look for a reputible breeder mentor. My breeder is from southern Washington. She belongs to the same regional club that you do. If you would like some information please PM me.

After hearing about some of the complications in having puppies, complications with the dam and the birth of the puppies, I personally, would not touch breeding with a 10 foot pole.

On the other hand I am not sure if you have thought about the cost of having puppies. It is most certainly not a money maker and can be extremely costly. Reputable breeders are breeding for the betterment of the breed NOT to make money. Just my two cents.

 

[DreamTime Newfs]

Wow, thats not very nice. IMO, if a dog finishes, he/she does fit the breed standard enough that multiple judges agree. I think I'll go with the dog who's finished in an argument about fitting the standard.

PLEASE be careful on how you write things. While it MIGHT be true that you can finish your dog/s easily in another part of the country, unless you go there and do it, you and the rest of us will never know. Sometimes those other locations look easier but they are not, because there are no majors. Sometimes travel is required and the cost is part of being a good breeder, commited to the dogs being bred.

IMO, if someone is breeding they better be showing their dogs and finishing their championships on their dogs. They also need to be putting some effort into education, rescue, working events and mentoring just as they do in producing puppies. If they are not doing this, how is the general public supposed to see them any different than a BYB?

Again...JMO...

I did not mean what I wrote as an insult to anyone and I apologize if it was taken that way. I do not agree that it should be assumed that because a dog is finished that he automatically fits the breed standard. We will have to agree to disagree on that one.

I do agree that breeders should be active in conformation, education, mentoring, working etc. I never said that breeders should not show their dogs. I just feel that some people put too much emphasis on showing or buying a puppy with a Champion pedigree and not enough on health, structure and type.

 

[hdnewfies]

I appreciate all your in put. My goal is to do things the right way. I have thought about the time, money, effort, dedication, and so on that goes with it. I also see that each and every newf on here looks different. I have looked at so many different breeders web site and all their CHs look different. I think its interesting. Some of German blood lines look like bears and I personally don't think they are good looking newfs but they have CH's too.

On the AKC web site it tells you what the standard looks like. Each of my dogs look different but according to the web site they fit the standard by "discription" I did not want to open a can of worms. I know it's a touchy subject and again thanks for all your input.

 

[DreamTime Newfs]

I appreciate all your in put. My goal is to do things the right way. I have thought about the time, money, effort, dedication, and so on that goes with it. I also see that each and every newf on here looks different. I have looked at so many different breeders web site and all their CHs look different. I think its interesting. Some of German blood lines look like bears and I personally don't think they are good looking newfs but they have CH's too.

On the AKC web site it tells you what the standard looks like. Each of my dogs look different but according to the web site they fit the standard by "discription" I did not want to open a can of worms. I know it's a touchy subject and again thanks for all your input.

If you are serious about breeding I suggest that you contact a NCA breed mentor for advice:
http://www.ncanewfs.org/education/pages/breedermentormap.html

Breeding is so difficult and there are people out there that can guide you in the right direction.

Good luck!

 

[hdnewfies]

Thank you DreamTime Newfs

 

[Ginny]

Donna, your post #41 says it all.

 

[ardeagold]

Thanks Ginny.

OK..Renee...back to the question I deleted earlier because I really wanted to clear my mind.

You own show dogs. You show your dogs. You get your dogs from a well known big show breeder. Your dogs conform to the breed standard.

So...it sounds as though you don't feel that showing is very important in assessing the quality of a dog, and if that's the case, why is your breeding program designed the way it is?

Your actions contradict your statements above. You do ALL of the things a reputable breeder does, yet you're saying that showing a dog to it's CH isn't an indication of quality? Then why waste the time and money doing it if that CH means so little?

And what if your breeder didn't show her dogs...and her breeder(s) didn't show theirs? Where would the "Championship lines" come from? They wouldn't exist.

I feel that most choose the lines they do BECAUSE of the quality of the lineage...and how many CH's (and other titles) are in that pedigree. That's a starting point in researching a line one may want to breed to, or purchase a puppy out of. The rest, of course, follows.

 

[Sun Valley]

I have shown my dogs in other parts of the US and finishing a dog was VERY easy. You also take into account the different point schedules in different regions of the US.

I have also finished dogs in my part of the US, with the help of a handler, where in my opinion the competition is stiffer then most area's.

I have seen less then ideal Newfs finish quite easily with a handler...and most handlers can finish just about any dog. Personally, I wish the AKC would make it a fair game for everyone and not allow professional handlers.

LA

 

[DreamTime Newfs]

Donna,

I never said that showing was unimportant. You are missing my point. I am saying that a dog may not be breed worthy even if he is a Champion.