What do you think? Please

[ardeagold]

Well Lou Ann..we who brave the show ring have all been there!

The UKC (United Kennel Club) doesn't allow professional handlers. But it does allow owners to handle their own dogs.

Now, we all know the faces of top quality Newf breeders (ahem Lou Ann ), and if WE who are virtual neophytes know those faces, so do the judges. And...they know the lines too.

So how does THAT help those who aren't as well known? The ones who have nice dogs, but are just faces in the crowd? Wouldn't that leave the door open for the exact same thing that happens with well known handlers??

Or does the well know breeder not only have to show their own dogs, but also those of all of their puppy buyers...to assure that their lines maintain a history of quality CH's?

 

[Ginny]

Renee, I think you are missing the main point of this thread. You are focusing on one aspect of showing you may not be happy with, but that doesn't help this newbie to understand the importance of breeding to a standard and starting with quality dogs... In fact, I think it ends up doing more harm than the good. It discounts what those trying to educate are hoping to achieve.

 

[ardeagold]

Donna,

I never said that showing was unimportant. You are missing my point. I am saying that a dog may not be breed worthy even if he is a Champion.

Agreed. But...how the heck are the newbies to the Newfie world supposed to wade through and understand all of the nuances of the direction this thread has taken?

IMO, the point of this whole thread was to try to educate the OP (and another poster in another thread) how to find and what defines a quality dog and a quality breeder, according to the AKC and the NCA.

There are always always exceptions to the rule, but geez...they've got to start somewhere.

I thought the point was to help guide them in the right direction, not tell them that that direction *might not* be so great either. What kind of message is that sending?

If that's the case, then why bother with trying to educate anyone at all?

LOL Ginny, we were posting at the same time, and appear to have the same thoughts.

 

[Sun Valley]

I think I did try educating this person who is thinking of breeding.

The breeding part is easy...it's afterwords the real work starts as I mentioned in an earlier post about selling, facilities, problems that may arise, etc. No response to that.

No, a Champion does not always equal quality, this is quite evident at times. There have been many dogs that have not been shown but they have proven themselves by being top producers as a stud dog or a brood bitch . I like to think this happened because they themselves were correctly bred and came from top kennels and top bloodlines.


LA

 

[KatieB]

I think a main point is that there have to be ways for puppy buyers to distinguish a good reputable breeder from a byb or poor breeder. Showing is one of those ways. Like it or not most reputable breeders show their dogs and many byb's and unreputable breeders do not. It's a point of distinguishing just like checking for clearances, looking at working titles, checking references and the other things one does to try and determine a good kennel from a bad kennel. Are there great dogs that arent' champions SURE...are there not so great dogs that are champions SURE....but if the good breeders don't participate in shows, posting health clearances and get out and work their dogs then the waters start to look muddied especially if you're a brand new puppy buyer who's not been in the breed for 30 years to know which kennels are good and which may not be. I happen to think all of my dogs are wonderful and perfect. I think getting your dogs out there for others to see can only make you a better breeder as you also get to see others dogs and evaluate what your strengths and weaknesses may be and build on them. If you just sit home in your kennel breeding your dogs to eachother without ever letting anyone see them much less looking at anyone else's well that makes it difficult to know if you are actually breeding to the standard or doing what is in the best interest of the breed. So in a big way showing helps to distinguish those things and whether you like the AKC, judges, handlers, politics or whatever if you really want to improve your lines and improve the breed you should be showing your dogs IMHO.

 

[Ginny]

Lou Ann, you did a good job of trying to educate. I just think the path has turned in a direction that's not helpful or productive...

 

[DreamTime Newfs]

Ginny,

I am not missing the point Ginny. I am not focusing on one aspect of showing. I was trying to tell the originator of this thread that just because a dog is a Champion does not mean that they should be bred. There are several other factors that come into play when breeding.
If this person is interested in breeding they should visit the NCA website and look up the breed mentor program. This forum is not really the place to determine whether you should breed or not. This thread will confuse them even more escecially with all of the edited posts.

Donna,

Again, in my opinion this person should contact a breed mentor. They should find somebody they are comfortable with and they should consider going to a National Specialty where they can talk to breeders, go to seminars and take advantage of the many education opportunities that are offered. They can also see what dogs look like from different bloodlines.

 

[Sun Valley]

I think a main point is that there have to be ways for puppy buyers to distinguish a good reputable breeder from a byb or poor breeder. Showing is one of those ways. IMHO.

katie,

I have to disagree with you...I have SEEN BYB and Mills hire a handler and finish their dogs. Many of these people are also doing health clearances. But they don't belong to any club or the NCA.

LA

 

[KatieB]

It's not all or nothing Lou Ann. I'm saying MOST...of course there are exceptions to the rule. Yes there are BYB's who show and do health clearances and reputable breeders who dont' show much. I'm saying on a grand scale if you look at most of the breeders that are reputable they show and if you look at most of the breeders who are not they don't show. It does help to distinguish especially if you're brand new to the breed.

 

[ardeagold]

Again, in my opinion this person should contact a breed mentor.

Agreed. But don't ALL of the breeder mentors show, and strongly believe in showing as part of the breeding program?

I have to disagree with you...I have SEEN BYB and Mills hire a handler and finish their dogs. Many of these people are also doing health clearances. But they don't belong to any club or the NCA.

And yes, Lou Ann, but you're referring to exceptions. Wouldn't the rule normally be that reputable breeders show their dogs?

 

[sara722003]

Breeding is a VERY BIG responsibility. BYB's don't put in the effort to breed "breed Standard Dogs" they breed $$$$$$$$$ and that's it. Showing IMHO means you are dedicating yourself to provide quality, well bred pups, and their parents meet the breed standard and you are TRYING TO IMPROVE the breed. You cannot do that w/o Showing. WD,WRD,WRDX, DD, TDD is only PART of ensuring you have a quality dog. Again JMHO if you (as a Breeder) don't show, it might be the greatest swimmer and drafter in the World, but I don't want a Newf, that I cannot be sure meets breed standards, has health testing, and working titles

----------------------------------------

Thank you for that sentiment. I always Start my search with the local breed clubs, watch them for several years; watch the dogs coming out of their programs (in both agility and conformation). Yes, it may take several years to add a dog to my household, but I wouldn't do it any other way. People who breed their own dogs, or even others, that aren't in a data base or ways to track lineage....these folks are beyond reason. GIVE ME A BREAK. Breeding dogs is a nightmare unless you have spent years and years of research working on how to improve the breed. (and even then, sad conditions can result). My honor goes to the Best breeders, but I fear they are few and far between.

 

[hdnewfies]

oh my goodness. I wish I would have never asked. I feel like no matter what I do, how much I research, how hard I try to improve my lines, its hard to get a good name for yourself.

I have heard lots of opinions. And my first question has been answered pretty much unanimously, I should be showing my dogs and get involved with my newfie club.

Thank you....

 

[ardeagold]

oh my goodness. I wish I would have never asked. I feel like no matter what I do, how much I research, how hard I try to improve my lines, its hard to get a good name for yourself.

I have heard lots of opinions. And my first question has been answered pretty much unanimously, I should be showing my dogs and get involved with my newfie club.

Thank you....

I, for one, am really happy you DID ask. That's the first step in educating yourself. Too many never take that step. This has been a good discussion, and even though there is a lot to weed through, and it's difficult to understand, it's important for anyone thinking of breeding!

So, thank YOU!

 

[newflizzie]

oh my goodness. I wish I would have never asked. I feel like no matter what I do, how much I research, how hard I try to improve my lines, its hard to get a good name for yourself.

I have heard lots of opinions. And my first question has been answered pretty much unanimously, I should be showing my dogs and get involved with my newfie club.

Thank you....

Don't be sorry that you asked! The simple fact that you asked and wanted to know and are willing to learn says a whole lot about you.

 

[NessaM]

oh my goodness. I wish I would have never asked. I feel like no matter what I do, how much I research, how hard I try to improve my lines, its hard to get a good name for yourself.

Every breeder - every famous line of Newfs - had to start somewhere. If you are truly committed to doing this thing, and doing it right, then I wish you all the luck in the world because there's no way in heck I could do it! :roflmao:

You've gotten a lot of very good advice already from folks who know a whole lot more about breeding than I do, so I'm just going to throw my 2 cents in with the folks who say that yes, showing is important, because it provides you with many (hopefully) impartial opinions regarding how well your dogs conform to the breed standard. It is not uncommon for folks to be so invested, and in love, with their dogs that they overlook faults.

I'm also going to join in with the folks who have urged you to acquire, immediately, a breeding mentor - someone who has been breeding these dogs for many, many generations and has the experience to guide you through all of the worst-case scenario issues that can crop up during a pregnancy, birth, and the first 12 weeks of the puppies' lives.

 

[Lori]

oh my goodness. I wish I would have never asked. I feel like no matter what I do, how much I research, how hard I try to improve my lines, its hard to get a good name for yourself.

I have heard lots of opinions. And my first question has been answered pretty much unanimously, I should be showing my dogs and get involved with my newfie club.

Thank you....

Don't be sorry you asked. How can anyone learn if they don't ask questions. People on this forum love this breed and are very passionate about it. One can only expect to get lots of opinions on a forum of this size, especially when someone comes on, who wants to just start breeding. Especially with some of the horror stories we have all heard. Everyone has to start somewhere though and this is a great place to learn. I, myself, would never think of breeding, but I am so thankful to those who put their heart and soul into it.

 

[baileydog]

Some breeders prefer doing the working stuff, others prefer the show ring -- not all do both. I wish more did.

Thanks Jeanie, I have read and researched so much in the past yr. And I want to do it the right way. We just got our puppy Tucker to be our big daddy. So I know I have 2 yrs of finger crossing ahead of me. I am looking for our female now knowing she will take longer to get ready then the our male. I just love having this forum now to use as a sounding board and I know I can learn allot here too.

I think you are feeling overwhelmed because of the steps you are taking and the reactions to those steps.

My advice......

You have a male, great....let him grow up. Build your dog resume with him. Put his working titles on him, that's what you are interested in right? Get him titled as he grows, CD, WD, DD, whatever, This will do MANY things for you..
1. Networking- you will meet so many people and learn so much along the road to earning titles, it will be a huge education factor.
2. Show your dedication to the breed by creating a good "Newfoundland Citizen".
3. Give you more time to research the whole breeding thing, all aspects of it.
4. Allow your boy to grow up and see what he is going to become, puppies CHANGE- so just becuase he is cute now does not mean he will finish out within the descriptors of the standard.

Once you have done all the above and decide that your boy is what you are looking for then start your next steps...
either showing him (reccomended), have him evaluated by other breeders, or attempting to acquire a female (whichever step you chose)

Honestly.... any reputable breeder you call and tell them you have a male and all your plans you are going to get flagged and shut down regarding getting a girl. In addition, purchasing a quality bitch is hard, even for established breeders- quality girls are just not offered for placement.

One insight I think that has been missed in all this discussion that breeding, and doing it the right way with quality dogs is not an overnight project. Yes you have researched for a year, now you need to spend the next two years developing your current dog. During that two years really look high low, in every corner for someone who you can feel super comfortable with and who is going to work with you to educate you, even if you don't purchase a dog from them (sometimes they know of something that will be available sooner from a partner or such). Your location is only a physical hinderance, as this is a technology age, pictures, email, etc. allow a mentor to be located away but still be helpful.

The dog world, no matter the breed, is very similar to job hunting. You have to have the credentials to get into certain positions or networks. Quality breeders are very protective of thier credentials becuase of the time and effort put into developing them, and unfortunately 9 times out of 10, people will remember one bad thing (dog) more than they will all the good, not always, but it does happen, thus the protection.

My thoughts on determining a good breeder from a byb breeder, kinda easy.......
* How many questions are you the buyer being asked by the breeder?
*How quickly can you obtain a full registration dog from them?
Should be fairly time consuming and feel difficult, and the puppy should start on a limited registration without a doubt.
* What kind of hoops are you the buyer jumping through to get the dog?
Not saying its impossible, but if you are looking for good dogs to potentially breed, with not having the credentials and being a newbie- it should be fairly difficult, truthfully. Are these all inclusive, by all means no, but for you the buyer, they should be the biggest red flags.

But don't despair, if this is what you want to do, do it right, by the books, and are HONEST about your intentions in everyway, be persistant and patient those are the keys for a newbie, and things will happen.

It will just take time and dedication, just as the quality breeder you are looking for have done for their lines.

Agree or disagree as you like.......

 

[sara722003]

Yep, Baileydog dials down the discussion and has some good answers and encouragement. No one can rationally purchase a pup and decide they've got the male side of their program 'established'. Give that male 2 or 3 years, make him run through all the hoops, connect with Newf people everywhere you're doing those things, and several years from now, you'll know whether or not you've got an excellent breed quality dog. But it will take years to determine that, even if he is from a tree of Champions. Every dog has to be considered on his own merit, and owners rarely can distance themselves enough from their dogs to do this rationally.

Good luck. Everybody starts some place, and you've got years and years ahead of you to 'earn' the right to breed. All the best to you!

 

[R Taft]

I have a greast mentor.........We went into co-ownership of one of my dogs and I would have followed her direction to who to breed to and we would have had a "stable" of her dogs to choose from.........We discussed all this and more. I feel I have a lot of dog knowledge. I was given a puppy that had great potential from great lines, full sisters have championships as does her mother and father. good health checks, awesome character. As a puppy she looked fabulous...........I went to shows with her and guess what, she is my beautiful girl, BUT and a big BUT......She is not the perfect bitch to breed from. She has faults, her eyes, her neck and her short tail. Her working/obedience and her character are perfect. So I have my bitch and I adore her and I am not swapping her, but when she is two, she will visit the vet.
So getting the "perfect" pup can still lead to the road of not breeding. Do I love my dog, yes....Will I maybe go down the same path with another dog, maybe.
But to me to breed a dog, they have to be as perfect as is possible and be judged by many to be this perfect dog............Just my 2 cent worth Ronnie

 

[ardeagold]

Yep, what they said. Most breeders start with their "foundation" female, but it takes a lot of work, and involvement getting that female. It usually comes from their breeder mentor who can walk every step of the way with them.

Everyone is right about growing a pup out too. They may look like perfect examples of the breed, and once grown, aren't. All kinds of things can happen structurally, either due to genetics or environmental influences.

Top quality breeders will usually breed a litter and keep one or two out of the litter to see how they grow, and if they're show quality. You can have a litter of 10, with only one (or none) that ends up being show quality. However, many may be wonderful working dogs, and those will go to pet and/or working homes. If there are several in the litter that have show potential, the breeder will keep the one(s) they want or place them in show homes with people either they know or with people who breeder/friends have recommended to them.

So, getting out there, getting involved, meeting people who are and have been involved in the breed is crucial.

Someone did ask earlier, and I don't think I saw the response...why do you feel you want to breed?