need your opinion.

[hemingway]

let's say you buy a puppy from a reputable breeder. let's say said puppy needs surgery on his elbows for FMCP at 10 months, and is diagnosed with elbow dysplasia with moderate changes. Fast forward 8 months, said puppy is then diagnosed with moderate hip dysplasia, worse on one side, and will most likely be a surgical candidate at some point in his life to repair the hips. now, contract says puppy can be returned for a refund if he has "crippling" HD. But you don't want to return puppy (who in their right mind would want to?) and is he crippled yet? No. But will live his live with moderate discomfort in at least one, if not both ends. You paid good money for a quality dog. You understand things can happen sometimes. But you've been told what he has could not have been your fault...and could only be genetic, even if breeder says the hips in his lines are all great.
do you think a refund for your puppy is in order?
If you are the BREEDER, do you think the right thing to do is offer a refund? Would that show that you stand by your breeding practices? Or do you think, my contract says I owe you nothing, you're on your own?

I anticipate some mixed reactions....but I need to know how others feel about this.

 

[wrknnwf]

That's a thoughtfully, well put question that is difficult to answer from any stand point.

I know how devastating this kind of diagnosis is, but my personal opinion is that there is no refund warranted at this point. The contract clearly states "crippling" and I would guess that there is a time period indicated. A year or two? And you've already stated that you don't want to return the dog, which is, apparently, a condition of the contract.

There is no way to predict how much this will affect the dogs life. It is also possible that the dog will remain asymptomatic or will have only minor to moderate problems.

Since it is widely known that dysplasia is not uncommon in Newfs, that it is polygenic and can be passed on genetically even if the lineage appears to be sound or has been radio-graphically tested, and it is not a disease that can be definitively predetermined, I believe it is unreasonable to expect breeders, especially reputable ones, to offer a monetary refund on every pup they produce who has one of these diseases.

I am terribly sorry if your pup is affected. Please remember, it's not a death sentence and that there are many ways to deal with the problem. Surgery is not always the answer. Get more opinions if you haven't already. If it appears that surgery is in his future, start a savings program now and/or get adequate insurance if available.

 

[NewfieMama]

I have somewhat similar situation in that Zuzu came from a very reputable breeder, parents had all clearances, yet still she has OCD, elbow dysplasia and 2 bad knees and is not yet 3.

IMO my breeders contract is clear and she does not owe me any money. She does "owe" me advice and support to the best of what she can offer (being at some distance from me and not being a vet). She is very willing to talk with me and she has contact with so many other Newf families including Zuzu's littermates. If I were closer I'm sure she would look at her in person, watch her move, etc.

When we decided to get a Newf I researched the possible health issues and tried to be well informed. We have insurance on Zu which is probably the number 1 thing I'd recommend to someone adding a Newf to their family.

Again I am sorry for what you are going through and am eight there with you in terms of young dog, good breeder, and future of pain/arthritis/discomfort/medication. Sucks.

Mary

 

[victoria1140]

Get good insurance- worth its weight in gold plus make sure it has lifetime continuation.

Wouldn't expect a refund but would like help and support if needed.There are no absolute guarantees on anything in this world including health issues.

Sorry if your furkid is affected but it isn't a death sentence ,it can be managed and some dogs with issues never display them. Go and love him while you manage his health issues

 

[Jager's Mom]

Well.... So far at 3 yrs old:

3 eye surgeries
1 hernia surgery
2 TPLO surgeries

In the future:
2 Hip surgeries

At this point, I've spent around $15,000

My breeder offered my half off my next newf.

Nuff said.

*I wouldn't have expected the breeder to pay... but I'd hope the breeder would NOT breed Mama and Papa again....ever!

 

[ardeagold]

You've already gotten some advice that I agree with so I won't add anything to that, but one thing you said jumped out at me:

"contract says puppy can be returned for a refund if he has "crippling" HD."

IMO, reputable breeders don't have this clause in their contracts. The "returned" part. Reputable breeders who have integrity and character do many things for their puppy buyers. They stand by them, give them endless time, support and advice, mentor them, become a friend for life, and some *may* even refund the price of a puppy, assist with the cost of surgery, or offer another puppy at no charge when the buyer is ready. It depends on the breeder, and the circumstances. But none of them expect their puppy buyer to take back a puppy or dog they love in exchange for another puppy or for cash reimbursement.

 

[hemingway]

thanks all.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

My contract is either/or. If they don't want to keep the dog (which is ridiculous of course) I will take it back and replace it. If they do want to keep the dog, there are considerations of things that must be completed and a monetary refund.
Reality? I think that environment plays just as large a part in hips as genetics do. Maybe even more. Same goes with elbows. and there is a LOT you can do to prevent surgeries in the future on those hips..keeping the dog lean and well muscled and not treating it like it's crippled will go a LONG way in preventing surgeries. Vets LIKE to do surgeries. a lot of them are NOT NEEDED when it comes to hips. Remember that dogs do NOT walk on their xrays. A muscular dog will hold those joints together and not suffer or get worse...so I recommend talking to a physiotherapy specialist for anyone that has a dog with a diagnosis of hip issues. There is so much more for the problem than surgery!

 

[Pipelineozzy]

And, to be honest...even tho I worked in a vet clinic for a LOT of years, I don't believe vets when they start laying blame on either the client OR the breeder. They don't know enough about it to be able to make a call like that. It's not about whose FAULT it is. It's a roll of the dice the same way it is when you have a child. How many completely normal people do you know that have children with special needs? IF it was that simple, the fact that most special needs people don't have children would mean there would be no more special needs people being born - but that doesn't happen. It's NOT that simple.

 

[skoorka]

Stacey, I tried to PM you but your mailbox is full. I feel your pain. My breeder (not nearly as reputable as yours - I've ALWAYS coveted her dogs!), did offer to refund our purchase price (which oddly enough was the same amount as the arthroscopic surgery Elwood needed at 13 months) but never did. She's done worse things to dogs since (and should be coated in meat and tossed in a lion pit as far as I'm concerned, but some of my local Club board members still let her show their dogs!), but hey - we've got an awesome pooch and are skilled at meds cocktails! Please give the big lug a smootch of the snoot for me! -Michelle

 

[Sun Valley]

In my opinion, no breeder ever sets out or wants to produce a health problem.

This is an unhealthy breed of dog with many problems that can and do arise.
As a breeder, I tell all of my puppy buyers that I can do every health clearance under the sun and that still doesn't guarantee a problem won't occur.
The buyers need to take some responsibility for the puppy. Pet insurance is something I talk about at length and hope that all of my buyers purchase.

I would hope that all contracts and guarantee's are read and agreed upon and questions asked before even taking the puppy home.

A breeder cannot guarantee against everything, nor do I think we should.

You signed a contract and now both parties need to honor it.

Lou Ann

 

[Ivoryudx]

IMO, a contract is a contract.... THIS is not about the contract. I agree, the breeder owes nothing back per the contract, THIS IS about the dog. While I would not think it wise on any breeders part to give refunds for minor things, or just a hip problem or elbow problem, I do believe with a yound dog who has BOTH or another life threatening disease, IMO, there needs to be a refund. Its not saying the breeder is to 'blame' its to stand behind the PUPPY produced, and not hide behind the contract that covered their butt! The dollars that the breeder charged for that puppy should be spent to now help that puppy.

Thats just my opinion, and actually my personal experience when something was not covered in the contract at all. I did not ask for a refund, it was already in my mailbox before I even had the life saving operation scheduled. As someone who has tried breeding, I've thought long and hard on this subject and I know 'good' breeders don't make money on selling puppies but I also know 'good' breeders know that not all puppies will be perfect, and they plan for just this exact thing. They hold onto part or all of the dollars for at least 2 years just to be prepared in this situation....to help any PUPPY they produce get what it needs, not to give refunds at the drop of a hair.

 

[hemingway]

thanks everyone, I know this is a tough question and I can definitely see both sides of the argument. While it is clear environment plays a role in the development of ED and HD, in Hemingway's case, we were very cautious with him while he was growing. Fed him the diet recommended by the breeder, covered our house with rugs so he could get around without slipping and falling, didn't let him play rough with older dogs, didn't over exercise him, etc. etc. In that case.....I just don't see how environment could have played a role. If I were a breeder, and I had done my best to ensure my dogs were clear of ortho issues...and one of the puppies I sold wound up with ED and HD before the age of two...I would refund the buyer simply to stand up for my breeding practices and show that this is not a common thing in my lines, contract be d*mned. (easy for me to say, right)
Regardless, while the vet rated his hip confirmation as POOR on a scale of poor, fair, good excellent, he has very strong muscles surrounding the joints as we've always exercised him and have tried to keep him fit. It has paid off! We will continue to do so...and we will continue to do our best to keep him mobile and happy for as long as we possibly can. Thank you for all of your opinions!!!!

 

[ElvisTheNewf]

Poor Hemi. It's just not fair that you can do absolutely everything right and still end up with such issues, when there are other dogs out there who come from BYB, eat crap food, and never have a single health scare.


Do you know if any of Hemi's littermates have the same issues?

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Is he exhibiting any rear lameness Stacey? Or are you just worried because of what you saw on the xray? Because if he is well muscled and not lame..I wouldn't even be worrying about the hips just because of an xray. I had a rescue here that I xrayed just on general principles and I was STUNNED to see how bad her hips were. She had basically no sockets at ALL. But she was lean and muscular and she could outrun quite a few of my OFA clear dogs and not even BLINK. I placed her and she lived to be 11 and NEVER exhibited any rear lameness. They really don't walk on their xrays.

 

[ardeagold]

I agree with fully with Susan and Cindy...and do also feel that if he's not exhibiting symptoms, I'd research, have a couple of separate opinions from specialists, and research more before doing anything at all. Make your decisions based on how he's doing, not on what the xrays say.

There are no guarantees with health, as we all know, but good breeders do try their best. There are so many variables that there are going to be a certain number of pups with issues, no matter how hard everyone tries to avoid them.

My problem is with the wording of the contract. I just don't like that return requirement for a refund. I've heard of it, and know it exists, but have never seen it in the contracts of the breeders I've had dealings with.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

I agree with fully with Susan and Cindy...and do also feel that if he's not exhibiting symptoms, I'd research, have a couple of separate opinions from specialists, and research more before doing anything at all. Make your decisions based on how he's doing, not on what the xrays say.

There are no guarantees with health, as we all know, but good breeders do try their best. There are so many variables that there are going to be a certain number of pups with issues, no matter how hard everyone tries to avoid them.

My problem is with the wording of the contract. I just don't like that return requirement for a refund. I've heard of it, and know it exists, but have never seen it in the contracts of the breeders I've had dealings with.

agreed Donna..nobody should be FORCED to give up their pup to get their guarantee. It's basically a trick to get out of guaranteeing on the dogs.

 

[KodysGrandma]

It strikes me that this is not so different from things that occur in the human world but reputable breeders can pay more attention to the possible genetics than we do as people. NEVERTHELESS there is essentially a difference between a "bad outcome" and what in the human world would be malpractice by a physician. Life has no guarantees, the good guys do the best they can, but "fate" is out there waiting to bite us in no particular order for no particular reason.

 

[Angela]

Stacy, did you happen to ask the breeder if she would be willing to reimburse you the selling price?

 

[victoria1140]

this is one of the reasons I wasnt bothered whether Max has kc papers or not.

Beau had them- impeccable breeding on his fathers side,mums side not so good but health issues all the way throughout his short lifetime . didnt make us love him any less and we always found solutions to try and help him.

Max good breeding -hopefully will be fit and healthy but well insured just in case.

go love and hug Hemingway and as said bad xrays dont constitute a poor quality lifestyle- you just adapt to his conditions- though wouldnt hurt to let his breeder know.