need your opinion.

[NewfieMama]

AND you can get that waiting period reduced to two weeks if you have a Vet check and have the Vet send a letter/email to Embrace to insure the dog is sound.

Embrace even covers cruciates under their Accident Only policies, which is what we drop ours back to (from full coverage) once they've gotten their clearances for HD, ED, Heart, Cystinuria, Thyroid, Patellas and Eyes, which is right around 2 yrs of age.

Also sorry for the hijack. Just wanted to clarify that.

Sorry, maybe it was only 2 weeks, I recall it bein significantly shorter and only needing the vet to fill out the form - easy. I only wish I'd taken on the prescription meds coverage at the time. Hindsight = 20/20.

 

[ardeagold]

you're missing my point. But thank you for trying to stir the pot. I'm not saying a single breeder here isn't doing everything they can to breed healthy newfoundlands...based on what is currently considered the breed standard. but maybe the breed standard is what is flawed. not the breeding practices.

I got helpful answers from all of you...and I'm grateful for all the different thoughts and opinions on puppies with excessive health problems and to what extent a breeder should be held responsible, if at all. This thread is obviously evolving to something much different, and I don't want anyone to be offended. So in hopes of putting this topic to rest, I just want to say thank you all for helping to answering a tough question and provide some much needed insight on the matter.

The "Breed Standard" doesn't address health. None do for any breed. The standards address what the breed looks like, what it's capabilities are (what is the purpose of the breed), how it moves and what the temperament is.

What the breeders who have responded to this thread are talking about ARE their breeding practices. They breed for the standard, but they also breed for health/longeivity as best they can with the information they have available to them.

There is no way to eliminate genetic defects/weaknesses/tendencies towards them until there are DNA tests for each known genetic disease that afflicts that particular breed. So yes...currently, breeding practices are limited to what breeders "know" and that won't change until science moves forward. So in that respect, I'd guess you could call all breeding "flawed".

Cystinuria can be eliminated, because breeders can plan their breeding programs around the results of the DNA tests on the breeding pair. They know who is clear, who is a carrier, and who is affected, and how it's passed on. So they can breed with confidence that none of their pups will have it.

In other breeds there are also other breed-specific DNA tests that can be done (and SHOULD be by all breeders) to eliminate that particular disease from their lines.

Unfortunately there are no DNA tests for anything else for Newfoundlands, so breeders are left with researching the health history of the lines. And as Cindy said, you can find perfectly clear hips all the way back for generations...and then get a dog with HD, or ED, heart, eye, or patella problems (and they're considering that cruciates and thyroid issues may be genetic as well). Sometimes these issues show up in multiples in one dog.

Another problem is that once science does start looking at every single problem that arises in a particular breed, they're finding that it may have a genetic component. Which makes sense when you think about it, because each dog is nothing more than a combination of their ancestors genes. The trick is to figure out WHY suddenly something is expressing when it didn't in the past. Like cruciate issues. They're rampant now, and they weren't in the not so distant past. So that's a newer area that researchers are investigating. It never ends.

Don't get me wrong...environment plays a HUGE rule in the expression of "potential" problems in a breed, so that just makes trying to find out what's going on more complicated.

To understand this, you have to understand the basics of genetics. Heck, to be a breeder you must have a better than basic grasp of genetics to breed at all, because if you don't, you not only get rampant and varied health problems, you end up with Newfs that look like anything but.

Everyone would like an idyllic world where dogs have no genetic diseases and they're perfect examples of the breed standard. ALL breeders strive for that, yet it's only a dream now. Perhaps in the future science will be able to help breeders achieve that perfect dog, but we aren't there yet.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

And an elbow surgery and less than perfect hips on xray would NOT be what I would consider "excessive" health issues.

 

[Henrys Mom]

You also can't dismiss how much environment plays a part in these injuries. I know you said you were careful with Hemi and I'm sure you were but unless you had him wrapped in bubble wrap there is no way to stop a crazy puppy from running and jumping. We were super careful with Henry and he ended up with HD at a young age. We never thought to blame the breeder or ourselves, it just happened. Mason our 20 month old is a crazy Newf and runs and jumps and everything and always has and he is perfectly healthy. Same breeder, same lines.

I believe you have to take what you get with a puppy of any kind and you deal with it. A breeder is there for support, IMO.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

Not sure what you are looking for. When you buy from a responsible breeder and you have done your homework and researched this breeder, you must have been happy with the breeding practices. Health problems happen, to the best breeders. And what do you expect a breeder to do if there is a problem? All that can be done is to take the dog back, offer a refund and a replacement pup. It is a shame that you think breeding is just a "business". The breed standard has nothing to do with health testing or issues. A breeder does health testing and stands behind what is produced which makes her a responsible breeder. Having pet insurance is a help for all involved, owner, dog, and breeder.

 

[ZoomZoom]

I rarely post, actually i rarely even read the posts out here because of posts like this exact thread. Someone posts less than accurate facts and people try to respond with reasonable answers, yet the misfacts continue. So, i happen to know some truth around this particular incident and although I would prefer to stay out of it, I think my friends on this site should get the other side. As i understand it, the "breeder" provided the "said puppy owner" with $500 upon learning of the first elbow surgery. The dog recovered nicely from this surgery. The breeder also paid money to have the xrays reviewed by the expet in Ohio. The breeder offered to take the dog to Ohio to be evaluated by the specialist in person. The "said puppy owner" wrote accusatory notes to the breeder, refused advice to purchase insurance and continues to accuse the breeder of being only interested in money.

I have two dogs from this breeder. I am very active in showing and working dog clubs and i am exposed to many other dogs from this breeder as well as other breeders. I cannot say enough wonderful things about this breeder as well as many others who have taken the time to impart their wisdom gained through their decades of careful study about the breed. I know many of you who have responded to this thread and i think i see a common theme among the replies which I totally agree with...there are no guarantees for perfect health even when the line is clean from issues for generations. If you wanted a guarantee, you should get a cloned animal. Our dogs give us unconditional love...why dont you try the same in return. And do everyone a favor and tell the whole story next time so someone doesnt have to take time away from hugging her Newf while she defends a friend and mentor. This site should be used for what it was intended not your personal ranting of inaccuracies.

I apologize to my friends on this site for my rant. I hope you will grant me forgiveness. I would do the same for any one of you.

 

[Henrys Mom]

Thanks for the clarification. I didn't realize the breeder had already given money to this person. Wow! I think that is fantastic and way above and beyond. Sounds like a very responsible breeder. As has been said before, there are no guarantees when breeding. The breeders do their clearances and breed to the standard of the breed and hope for the best.

 

[mrsnamsherf]

Actual wood.

Very funny, Nessa! :lol:


I think I understand the frustration Stacey is experiencing. We are repeatedly urged to buy a puppy from a reputable breeder so we know what we are getting, have less health issues, etc. So to do all your research, pay all this extra money, meet all the criteria, follow all the puppy-raising advice, and STILL be dealt a lousy hand with a less-than-healthy (though still beloved) puppy would be SO upsetting.

I also think there is a misunderstanding. I do not think breeders are saying we should accept poor health for our newfs by saying that we have to understand newf healh problems. I think they are just pointing out that, at this time, these health problems are known in the breed, and it is something to consider when you buy a newf. But I believe that our reputable breeders ARE working to better the health of the breed.

Honestly, I believe I would be upset if Hemi were my dog. But I also believe the contract is the only legal obligation. As far as any other obligation on the breeder's part, I don't think there is any hard and fast rule. Every situation is different. And I don't know every detail. But I wish Hemi a long, happy, pain-free life. Which, I think, is what we ALL would like for all newfies.

Marie

 

[victoria1140]

I am enjoying the discussions on this thread, l think by expressing all our viewpoints it gives a fascinating insight into what responsible breeders do.

I also think with breeders you have to be able to interact on a personal level .l know with Max's breeder l feel comfortable ringing her up and discussing issues.

We have good insurance for him but even if he gets a health problem money doesnt help the emotional distress we all endure and the burden it places upon ourselves to do what we can for quality of life for our furkids.

If l found Max had hd or elbow problems later on l would always wonder did l do something wrong or is it a genetic issue

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

We have good insurance for him but even if he gets a health problem money doesnt help the emotional distress we all endure and the burden it places upon ourselves to do what we can for quality of life for our furkids.

That is the point. A pup with health issues does become emotional on the part of the owner and breeder. Now if you add a financial element, it is even worse for all. At least insurance helps with that one aspect.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

I think I understand the frustration Stacey is experiencing. We are repeatedly urged to buy a puppy from a reputable breeder so we know what we are getting, have less health issues, etc. So to do all your research, pay all this extra money, meet all the criteria, follow all the puppy-raising advice, and STILL be dealt a lousy hand with a less-than-healthy (though still beloved) puppy would be SO upsetting.

Marie

So what do you think you would get from a not so reputable BYB... one that does not do health testing, (that is why they charge less), has no criteria to insure the pup is going to a good home, has no puppy raising advice, and is no where to be found when there is a question or issue?

 

[ardeagold]

And often the BYB's and millers are selling the pups for the same amount or even MORE than reputable breeders and no effort has gone into the breedings for breed standard OR health.

 

[hemingway]

So, i happen to know some truth around this particular incident and although I would prefer to stay out of it, I think my friends on this site should get the other side. As i understand it, the "breeder" provided the "said puppy owner" with $500 upon learning of the first elbow surgery. The dog recovered nicely from this surgery. The breeder also paid money to have the xrays reviewed by the expet in Ohio. The breeder offered to take the dog to Ohio to be evaluated by the specialist in person. The "said puppy owner" wrote accusatory notes to the breeder, refused advice to purchase insurance and continues to accuse the breeder of being only interested in money.

You are wrong about a few things here, so as it turns out, you don't know the "truth." you only know what you know.

Here is the truth, for the record:
Hemingway had surgery back in December for FMCP. Yes, they removed bone chips that were causing him discomfort. But anyone knows surgery does not fix elbow dysplasia....his elbows are not formed properly! He has a progressive degenerative disease in his elbows! His surgeon told me that the cartilage is almost completely gone in one elbow. Which we all know does not regenerate. Hemingway noticeably tries to avoid bearing a lot of weight on this front legs. Does he play? Yes. Does he run? Yes. He is a puppy and therefore seems to have complete disregard for his body! (much to my dismay!) So, had we not performed the surgery, his elbows would be in worse shape, but it did not "cure" him of elbow dysplasia. His elbows are our biggest problem. So hearing his hips were less than perfect...and in fact the first assessment being "Poor," was VERY upsetting, knowing that he uses his hips to try and avoid putting too much weight on his front!

Our breeder did give us $500 toward the surgery, which cost us $3500. We were glad she helped, but at that time, several people were telling us that she should have refunded us the purchase price, right then and there., regardless of what was in the contract. I didn't know what to think or expect from her or what to hold her responsible for....this is our first purebred dog.

We did not get insurance on Hemingway the day we brought him home. We thought about it and talked about it and then within WEEKS of buying him we were in the vet for his lameness in the front. Once you discuss a problem with your vet, that problem is NOT COVERED BY INSURANCE. It is called "pre-exisiting." So despite being faced with an expensive surgery, we knew insurance would do nothing for us regarding that issue. So we did not get it. We also discussed a popping sound in his hips with our vet around the same time. Our vet manipulated his hips and noted: possible malformation. So, insurance would not help us there either. based on where we are at this point, we literally would have needed to get insurance the day we brought him home. He is our first dog. We didn't do it. We SHOULD HAVE. And I will always tell people to do it immediately. Lesson learned. If at any point after his lameness I thought insurance would even TOUCH this dog, I would have gotten it. But it seemed almost immediate that we started having problems, and you all know as well as I do that insurance companies will not cover pre-exisiting issues. So, we didn't "refuse" to get insurance. We didn't get it fast enough and then felt like it was useless.

I did write my breeder an email when I was very very upset. You must know, I was in tears about his hips for days. I couldn't even call his vet to discuss it because I was too upset. I couldn't talk about it without crying. I have apologized to my breeder for approaching her with so much anger. I am a protective mom and I felt I had been "duped." I now understand that was not the case. You must know that several respectable, intelligent elders in the Newf world (people many of us here trust and look up to) were encouraging me to ask for a refund and were in my ear telling me a refund was in order the day of his ED diagnosis. So, what was I supposed to do? When several people I trust tell me a refund is "the right thing to do, for HEMINGWAY" you bet your a$$ I'm going to push for it!!! They had me at "for Hemingway"!!! It was not about the dollar amount. It was about what I was being told was "MORALLY RIGHT."

All I have EVER wanted in any of this was the best thing for my dog. I'm hoping my breeder and I will be able to move forward. I accept her decision. Yes, she offered to take Hemingway to Ohio for a proper hip evaluation but I know my dog and he does not do well away from home...and has just been put under for two procedures. I am simply not comfortable having him all the way in Ohio, knocked out for Xrays, just to confirm he is dysplastic. I will take it as it comes....when he seems more uncomfortable we will do what we have to in order to make him comfortable! But I told her that I whole-heartedly appreciate the offer and the Xray review. Having another take on the image has given me a better perspective.

I have not been on here spewing lies and hate. I was and am very disappointed that I have a PUPPY with these problems, and the uncertainty of what the future holds is unsettling. I asked your opinions on what you thought was in order in this type of situation. I'm glad I got so many responses because many of them were opposite of what I had been hearing and I needed to see that side of the argument. I wish I had consulted NN prior to emailing my breeder, but what's done is done and the rest is between her and me.

I would hope you'd all understand the upsetting, confusing time I went through over the last couple of weeks with Hemingway, and know that it was overwhelming for me. That what we've been through with our first newfoundland has been discouraging, at BEST. And our experiences in life are what form our opinions and thoughts and feelings. THIS is all I have had to go off of. So forgive me if I sounded bitter in this thread!

To answer Cindy- the reason I got a Newfoundland was because "Sweetness of temperament is the hallmark of the Newfoundland." Hemingway has certainly lived up to that.

 

[Milliejb]

Just trying to lighten it up a bit... And I know its not my business to say, but I just love this forum, love the people I have met, and love everyone's opinions whether I agree or disagree on them.. Its what makes it a great place! But I think this thread is dead... Anyone agree????

 

[hemingway]

Just trying to lighten it up a bit... And I know its not my business to say, but I just love this forum, love the people I have met, and love everyone's opinions whether I agree or disagree on them.. Its what makes it a great place! But I think this thread is dead... Anyone agree????

yes...PLEASE.

 

[janices]

Just trying to lighten it up a bit... And I know its not my business to say, but I just love this forum, love the people I have met, and love everyone's opinions whether I agree or disagree on them.. Its what makes it a great place! But I think this thread is dead... Anyone agree????

Yes, I was thinking it would be good if moderators could lock this for no further comment.

 

[wrknnwf]

I have one final thing to add.

I don't think there is ANYONE on this board who either can't feel or hasn't experienced your anguish, whether or not they think a refund is due. We put our heart and soul into this breed regardless of whether we are pet owners or breeders.