need your opinion.

[ElvisTheNewf]

Dr Davis is the ofa hip X-ray expert. Dr Dyce at OSU is a wonderful ortho surgeon if you needed one.

Thanks! Hopefully we won't ever need a hip guy, but it's nice to know one is around.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

no lameness in the back...had the xray done b/c of a knocking sound we could feel and hear in the back end. Sometimes he is a bit awkward back there...and doesn't move completely normal. but is nice and strong and doesn't have a pronounced limp.

His xrays were performed and evaluated by a vet who has owned Newfoundlands and knows them well, though she is not an orthopedic specialist. My breeder has had Hemingway's xrays looked at by a hip expert in Ohio, and he said the xray wasn't the best angle for making an evaluation. And based on that he considers them mildly dysplastic. So maybe there is some hope there.

I would not be overly concerned. Keep him on good joint supplements.

 

[Sun Valley]

should buyers and breeders really settle for this "truth?" maybe it's time to rethink the way the newfoundland is bred if this is the case.

But it is the truth, unfortunately...why sugar coat it? And how do we breed when parents already have all of their clearances? What more can we do?

LA

 

[NewfieMama]

nothing but the best and hope it all works out for you... Hugs to Hemi...
Oh, and just thought I would add, to those who said they could kick themselves for not having insurance, I have insurance, have since day one, but because Mille has not even been with me a year, cruciate injuries are not covered until after you have insurance for a year. In other words, I got nothing back! UGH!! I have paid more for having insurance than I have received back from it.

Yikes, which insurance is that? Embrace required a waiting period unless you had the vet fill out the ortho exam form, then the waiting period was short, maybe 90 days?

It would be good maybe to have a sticky in one forum where people can post the ins and outs of the various insurances available?

Sorry for the hijack Stacey and head scratches to Hemi.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

But it is the truth, unfortunately...why sugar coat it? And how do we breed when parents already have all of their clearances? What more can we do?

LA

Actually, for a giant breed, I think we rate pretty high on the health scale. Many of the other giants have much shorter lifespans than Newfs. The reality is that there is, in life a "S*&t happens" clause. And that means that we can be as careful as we possibly can, and there is STILL going to be a percentage of dogs that have less than perfect hips or whatever....the SAME AS HUMANS. Healthy people have children with issues. It happens all the time. I've had a pup come up dysplastic (severely dysplastic, no hip sockets and remodelling by SIX MONTHS OLD!) and she had an ofa clear pedigree back to the ark. When I looked at THAT xray there was no question in my mind that she had to have been born with imperfect hips. I don't know WHY..but she was. The point of course is that it was NOBODY"S FAULT. I had done my job by using healthy parents..and she was raised right. So far, she is actually doing fine, and she's over two years old, but eventually, she WILL have problems because there is no hip sockets at all. In that situation, I am guaranteeing on her...BUT...we have to accept the fact that when you buy a living thing, it is subject to health issues that nobody has any control over, so you have to decide how much risk you are willing to take. It's not like a stationary object that you can fault 'quality of workmanship or materials" for the breakdown. I think my policy is mainly whether or not this animal can live a normal life and function - and that has to be the line I draw when making the decision. There isn't any other way to 'breed" them..you do your clearances, and you roll the dice...and you pray they land right. Just like having a baby, actually.

 

[Milliejb]

Yikes, which insurance is that? Embrace required a waiting period unless you had the vet fill out the ortho exam form, then the waiting period was short, maybe 90 days?

It would be good maybe to have a sticky in one forum where people can post the ins and outs of the various insurances available?

Sorry for the hijack Stacey and head scratches to Hemi.

VPI.... a friend had it and I heard good things but since I started complaining about it, so has everyone else! haha!
And now as much as I would like to switch, her knees will never be covered if I do. (SIGH)

 

[DAWNMERIE]

I'd switch anyways Jess....VPI is terrible and is the reason I stopped the insurance and started a savings account. But I have to say I have begun to look into other companies that seem so much better. Even if it was covered under VPI, say the surgery was $4k, maybe thier policy says the surgery should only be 2K, you would pay the balance anyhow. And I think with some of the other companies that you might be able to get coverage on those knees again should something else occur. (yes, they would probably have a waiting period but it's honestly worth the phone calls!)

 

[janices]

Actually, for a giant breed, I think we rate pretty high on the health scale. Many of the other giants have much shorter lifespans than Newfs. The reality is that there is, in life a "S*&t happens" clause. And that means that we can be as careful as we possibly can, and there is STILL going to be a percentage of dogs that have less than perfect hips or whatever....the SAME AS HUMANS. Healthy people have children with issues. It happens all the time. I've had a pup come up dysplastic (severely dysplastic, no hip sockets and remodelling by SIX MONTHS OLD!) and she had an ofa clear pedigree back to the ark. When I looked at THAT xray there was no question in my mind that she had to have been born with imperfect hips. I don't know WHY..but she was. The point of course is that it was NOBODY"S FAULT. I had done my job by using healthy parents..and she was raised right. So far, she is actually doing fine, and she's over two years old, but eventually, she WILL have problems because there is no hip sockets at all. In that situation, I am guaranteeing on her...BUT...we have to accept the fact that when you buy a living thing, it is subject to health issues that nobody has any control over, so you have to decide how much risk you are willing to take. It's not like a stationary object that you can fault 'quality of workmanship or materials" for the breakdown. I think my policy is mainly whether or not this animal can live a normal life and function - and that has to be the line I draw when making the decision. There isn't any other way to 'breed" them..you do your clearances, and you roll the dice...and you pray they land right. Just like having a baby, actually.

It's a case by case basis and I look at too can the newf live a normal life and function. If I don't think the life can be normal long term my guarantee kicks in.

 

[Milliejb]

I'd switch anyways Jess....VPI is terrible and is the reason I stopped the insurance and started a savings account. But I have to say I have begun to look into other companies that seem so much better. Even if it was covered under VPI, say the surgery was $4k, maybe thier policy says the surgery should only be 2K, you would pay the balance anyhow. And I think with some of the other companies that you might be able to get coverage on those knees again should something else occur. (yes, they would probably have a waiting period but it's honestly worth the phone calls!)

I have made phone calls and yes they wil only give me 2K even though each knee is 4K. They "said" which I will believe when I see it, that I will be compensated for the second surgery bc it is after her year mark. I am going to wait until then and then switch. VPI is only good for routine stuff but some of the other ones I looked into are better for surgeries and big stuff. I have a pro and con list on all of them that I will revisit after surgery # 2. One thing at a time though I am a bit overwhelmed! Poor Hemi! We highjacked his thread... I am sorry buddy! This should be all about you!
I do think we should start a thread with insurances though. I would love to hear everyones advice!!

 

[Bojie]

Stacey,
My gut says no, you are not specifically entitled to anything but kindness and support.

I agree with Beth. It's kind of what we sign up for when we choose to own this breed of dog. Just because cancer doesn't run in my family doesn't mean I might not end up with it, and it doesn't mean my mom should pay for my treatments (just the way I think, but I do think that she should offer to pay for some liposuction to my thighs, because those definitely DO run in my family. I know at any moment one of my dogs can die of bloat, comes with the territory or a limp can turn into osteocarcoma. I did so much research on this breed I was well prepared when it came time for Bojie's TPLO surgery. My breeder was so supportive of us, she offered to take him and have his surgery done in the vet hospital she worked at, at her discount. I opted to keep him here with me after extensive research. But I know that I can pick up the phone and call her (which I do all too often squealing after they earn a title or pass a test to thank her for choosing them for me) or shoot her an email with questions. We have a respectful open relationship. To me, that is much more important than a monetary reimbursement for any of our surgeries or procedures, which have been all too many in the last few years.

I totally get where you are coming from though. Just my opinion on a touchy topic.

 

[NessaM]

I agree with Beth. It's kind of what we sign up for when we choose to own this breed of dog. Just because cancer doesn't run in my family doesn't mean I might not end up with it, and it doesn't mean my mom should pay for my treatments (just the way I think, but I do think that she shold offer to pay for some liposuction to my thighs, because those definitely DO run in my family. I know at any moment one of my dogs can die of bloat, comes with the territory or a limp can turn into osteocarcoma. I did so much research on this breed I was well prepared when it came time for Bojie's TPLO surgery. My breeder was so supportive of us, she offered to take him and have his surgery done in the vet hospital she worked at, at her discount. I opted to keep him here with me after extensive research. But I know that I can pick up the phone and call her (which I do all too often squealing after they earn a title or pass a test to thank her for choosing them for me) or shoot her an email with questions. We have a respectful open relationship. To me, that is much more important than a monetary reimbursement for any of our surgeries or procedures, which have been all too many in the last few years.

I totally get where you are coming from though. Just my opinion on a touchy topic.

What Meg said. Except for the bit about her thighs. My mom owes me for marrying my father's NOSE.

 

[hemingway]

i think people are different and you can't compare human "noses" to dysplasia.....dog breeding is a business. and breeders ARE responsible for the dogs they produce. to what extent is the question.

 

[hemingway]

as buyers, we should hold breeders to a very high standard. if we just accept health problems then who is winning? certainly not the dog. all I'm saying is I expect more because I think the dogs we are putting into the world deserve happy lives. and shrugging at "inevitable" health problems is an easy way out.

should bulldog breeders and buyers just accept that the average lifepan of the english bulldog is 5? And that they are health disasters? Should we not want more for these dogs and all purebreeds? I think my question is evolving to something much bigger. But perhaps it's about saying, let's change what defines a newfoundland if it makes a healthier dog. it's not going to happen. not in my lifetime. but a girl can dream of healthy newfies....

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/magazine/can-the-bulldog-be-saved.html?pagewanted=all

 

[NessaM]

and shrugging at "inevitable" health problems is an easy way out.

You've had at least three breeders in this thread alone tell you that these things happen, regardless of how hard they work to breed healthy puppies. I think what you posted above comes perilously close to calling them liars. These are women who have been working with the breed and breeding for many, many years. Some of them have decades of experience.

If you don't accept that what they said is true, I suggest you start the perfect breeding program and breed puppies with no illnesses, orthopedic issues, temperament or conformation faults. I'd say somewhere between 6 and 10 generations of all puppies from all litters being perfectly healthy would be enough to prove that you'd succeeded. And since I love my dogs, and the breed, I sincerely hope you DO succeed. I'll buy a puppy from your 11th totally sound generation.

if we just accept health problems then who is winning?

I don't think you've "just accepted" Hemi's health problems. You've notified his breeder. It sounds, in fact, like you've been very thorough with your documentation and notification. She's now aware that that breeding pair led to some ortho problems in one puppy. You've also made his ortho situation public. What other steps do you think you should take?

I think the only option open to you at this point "to hold breeders to a higher standard", since you've already notified Hemi's breeder, and now notified everyone on Newf.net, is to select a breeder you'll be more satisfied with next time around. If you're looking for a breeder who considers the health and longevity of his puppies as paramount, I believe Peter Maniate has made soundness his life work.

http://hannibalkennels.on.ca/

 

[NessaM]

p.s. If you had ever seen my nose, you wouldn't be so dismissive of it causing me sincere distress. I could chop wood with it.

 

[NessaM]

Actual wood.

 

[Bojie]

*sigh* We shouldn't compare humans to dogs. Humans are much more irresponsible with their breeding programs than our beloved breeders.

 

[hemingway]

you're missing my point. But thank you for trying to stir the pot. I'm not saying a single breeder here isn't doing everything they can to breed healthy newfoundlands...based on what is currently considered the breed standard. but maybe the breed standard is what is flawed. not the breeding practices.

I got helpful answers from all of you...and I'm grateful for all the different thoughts and opinions on puppies with excessive health problems and to what extent a breeder should be held responsible, if at all. This thread is obviously evolving to something much different, and I don't want anyone to be offended. So in hopes of putting this topic to rest, I just want to say thank you all for helping to answering a tough question and provide some much needed insight on the matter.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

I'm just not sure what it is you WANT Stacey. I'm really not. In order to change Newfs so that they would not be subject to hip/elbow/whatever issues...via the breed standard as you suggest...the answer would be downsizing them by about 100 lbs, and making them into another breed. The people that are specifically looking for a newf do NOT want a small or medium breed, they want a GIANT breed. Why di you buy Hemi? Would you have wanted him if he was going to top out at 50 lbs? You selected him because you wanted a giant breed... And giant and Large breed dogs in general (and Newfs are NOT alone) are prone to orthopedic issues. The "generic" dog that came with creation and occurs naturally in the wild is NOT a Newfoundland, and is probably one of the few canine species that does not have at least one area that is a weak spot. PIck a breed, and then google and find out what the issues in THAT breed are. Newfs in actual fact are relatively unscathed at this point for "extremist" features like bulldogs, tho that CAN change. There are VERY few "man made" breeds that do not have any weak areas, and by selecting a breed that is very large - orthopedics are going to be the risk area. Are the parents of your dog certified? Is the pedigree clean? If it's not, then that means your breeder has not done due diligence. If it IS a clean pedigree, they have.
And I'm sorry, dog breeding is NOT a business for me. It's an expensive HOBBY, and I attempt to produce puppies occasionally that will make their owners happy in every expectation they have. (Consider that some years, my total income from puppies is..ONE PUPPY, or THREE ....) which does not even cover the cost of taking care of one of the parents...not to mention stud fees, vet fees, etc etc etc. This year I haven't produced ANY puppies. But Im still taking care of 9 Newfs. Not much of a business is it???
How could your breeder have PREVENTED Hemi having problems? IF you can actually come up with an answer to that...every breeder I know would LOVE to hear it, because no matter what we do, life will STILL throw out a screwball every once in a while and a dog will have problems. This is what I have told some people in the past...if you want a dog that is going to be OFA clear and guaranteed NOT to have any degree of arthritis or anything in the elbows at 2 years of age, you may have to wait a while and expect to pay a LOT more, because I have to keep it until it's accomplished that to make that promise.
BUT...from the business perspective...if you want to look at it that way...your breeder has a contract with you outlining what they cover and what they don't. You presumably agreed to that. So look from that standpoint. If you buy anything else..it will come with coverage stating what they cover and what they do not as far as warranty. If something happens that is not covered in the agreement, would you even consider the idea that you were entitled to MORE? I understand you are upset - I do. My first Newf had problems that make Heminways look like a cakewalk. But really, his hips are NOT causing him any problems, he's NOT lame, and I dont understand WHY you are this upset because of the "picture". Look at the DOG. Before you looked at the xray..you were fine. Now you are not. And trust me, Hemingway doesn't even know he didn't get a pretty hip picture, and THAT is how HE is going to live. The same way he did before you xrayed him....

 

[ardeagold]

Yikes, which insurance is that? Embrace required a waiting period unless you had the vet fill out the ortho exam form, then the waiting period was short, maybe 90 days?

It would be good maybe to have a sticky in one forum where people can post the ins and outs of the various insurances available?

Sorry for the hijack Stacey and head scratches to Hemi.

AND you can get that waiting period reduced to two weeks if you have a Vet check and have the Vet send a letter/email to Embrace to insure the dog is sound.

Embrace even covers cruciates under their Accident Only policies, which is what we drop ours back to (from full coverage) once they've gotten their clearances for HD, ED, Heart, Cystinuria, Thyroid, Patellas and Eyes, which is right around 2 yrs of age.

Also sorry for the hijack. Just wanted to clarify that.