I'd like to have an argument please

[angie j]

Spoken playfully in my favorite sketch next to the "dead Parrot"...

An argument isn't just contradiction....
It can be.
No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. Monty Python

So, here is my argument....

I understand why Breeders continue to 'better' the breed. I originally wanted a Landseer and had a hard time finding one... Why? Because breeders are reluctant to breed and get a "poor pattern" .. Ok I guess it makes a tad of sence...no, not realy... not to me...
I mean, what is the purpose of just breeding to produce a "show quality dog". Isn't a dogs purpose to be a 'companion' to man?! It's like producing 'nic nacks'... Who cares if it's got a perfect 'saddle' on it's back? If it's all it should be 'Newf wise' put it to work being mans best friend....

Next....

 

[Pregreen]

I'm always up for an argument, just ask my family and friends. I think if you are going to breed it absolutely has to be to better the breed. If you are not shooting to breed "show quality dogs" that makes you no better than a puppy mill in my opinion. There are plenty of companion dogs available in shelters and rescues, when the unwanted are all spoken for feel free to bring more dogs into the world. That's my opinion.
Next....

 

[NKlein]

I have run into the same issue (very few great breeders with landseers in the lines), but none of the breeders I've spoken with about landseers are concerned about the markings, only structure. If a breeder were only concerned with markings, I'd run.

I, personally, would not support a breeder that I didn't believe was dedicated to bettering the breed.

 

[Ivoryudx]

If someone wants just a 'companion to man' then why select a Newf at all? Any dog will fit that.

There are far too many dogs in the world not to be selective if breeding.

As far as Monty Python goes, I've never been a fan.

 

[ladybugnessa]

If someone wants just a 'companion to man' then why select a Newf at all? Any dog will fit that.

There are far too many dogs in the world not to be selective if breeding.

As far as Monty Python goes, I've never been a fan.

and see I don't want any old dog to be my companion. I want a newf. for size, for drool, for shaggy coat, for personality. a GSD does NOTHING for me. St Bernards are big but I don't like their personalities. most dogs under 80 pounds do NOTHING for me....

I agree there are way too many unloved animals in this world and breeding should not be random.

But I LOVE monty python.

 

[victoria1140]

I would prefer all breeders to be concerned about health and structure rather than whether the saddle colour is perfectly proportioned. I love my newf but I also love my gsd , crossbreeds and feisty Jack Russell . Wouldn't care whether they were show quality as I want a companion that suits me and temperent and health are important to me after all the health problems of the lasat few years

 

[Connie w Tuck]

I'm not dead yet!!! I love Monty Python.
I totally agree with Nicole. There are good breeders out there that breed black and landseers for health and structure. A friend of ours has a landseer from the breeder because he was the ugly duckling. (dog not friend). No intent to show. He grew up and the breeder said OMG- you have to show him. He turned into the beautiful swan.

 

[Sun Valley]

Hi,

I use to breed Landseer's..I LOVE them! And I still would love to have another one. But when I started seeing the quality of Landseer's getting very bad, I stopped breeding them. There was/is no sense in producing Landseers just to produce them. You can do repeat after repeat breeding and will still get different patterns/markings with each litter.

As someone mentioned earlier, we don't breed for a particulare pattern, but rather structure and type. Not an easy task with Landseers.

Lou Ann

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

Reputable breeders are show/working breeders. They show their dogs so they meet the breed standard and are judged for structure, movement, size, temperament, type and appearance. Color does play a part in the breed standard. If a breeder is breeding a landseer for a certain pattern, and that is all they are breeding for then it is not a good thing. But those landseer breeders, that show their dogs, that are breeding for pattern are carefully breeding their dogs that have their Championship and health clearances, and have conformed to all the other standards, are bettering the breed.
Nicole writes -
"but none of the breeders I've spoken with about landseers are concerned about the markings, only structure. If a breeder were only concerned with markings, I'd run."
You are talking to breeders that are breeding working dogs so color patterns do not matter as much.
Regardless if someone only wants a pet, and doesn't care so much about markings, you always want to get a pup from a breeder that is trying to breed the best dog she can. There are always pet quality pups in any litter and few show quality, for the most part, so it is better to try to breed the best. It is better to try to get a pet quality pup from a breeder like this, then to get one from a breeder that is breeding pets only.

 

[dcamp2835]

Well said, Lynn and Lou Ann!!

 

[angie j]

I'm not dead yet!!! .[/QUOTE]

My mom always says that to me...lol... She's 80

 

[Ginny]

Regardless if someone only wants a pet, and doesn't care so much about markings, you always want to get a pup from a breeder that is trying to breed the best dog she can. There are always pet quality pups in any litter and few show quality, for the most part, so it is better to try to breed the best. It is better to try to get a pet quality pup from a breeder like this, then to get one from a breeder that is breeding pets only.

This is something that a lot of people don't understand. I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "but I only want a pet, a friend, a companion." My response is how about "a sound pet, a sound friend, and a sound companion?" Which of course is qualified by the statement that even the sound dogs from sound lines, adhering to structure, can produce an unsound pup/adult. You're just stacking the deck in your favor. I feel sometimes like I'm :beatdeadhorse:

 

[R Taft]

Surely most breeders would be firstly concerned about structure (conformation), health, character(also very important), workability soundness and last color.................Just like any other animal breeding program, such as horses

 

[rainsmom]

I'm not a breeder, though I'd like to breed in the future, and I searched for this puppy with that in mind. To me "show quality" is just one aspect, but it's part of the total package. Newfs weren't developed to show: they were developed to work. To work they have to have an excellent structure -- which is one of the things the standard emphasizes -- so I *do* look for a breeder who actively shows. But I also want proven working ability -- draft, water, and obedience at the very least. Add to those two things health clearances AND solid temperaments.

What does all that have to do with the "right" color pattern? A breeder who doesn't care about meeting the standard coat pattern might not care about other aspects of the standard... or heart checks or excellent hips or trainability. A breeder who cares about coat patterns might not be interested in the total package... but I'm betting the odds are in my favor that I'm more likely to find the total package from a breeder who cares about coat patterns than one who doesn't.

 

[angie j]

Surely most breeders would be firstly concerned about structure (conformation), health, character(also very important), workability soundness and last color.................Just like any other animal breeding program, such as horses

Depends kinda.... are you breeding Appys and Paints (Lanseers) Color is important to the breeder.... not that it can be traded off if breeding is poor... but what I'm asking is ... If you are breeding Lanseers are you going to either 'not breed' or not breed healthy specimines because the coat pattern is not "prefered" how man made are we going to take the breeding? I can't say I personaly believe a coat pattern 'improves' the breed much.

 

[ardeagold]

I'm sure I'm out of the loop, but I've never heard of a breeder breeding specifically for "pattern". IF they happen to get a puppy in a litter that meets the breed standard plus has the proper markings as described in the breed standard, then I'd expect the breeder to want that dog shown. Why not? Plus, if the breeder is making every effort to breed a "complete" Newfoundland, the dog must also be able to compete in working events successfully - and should be, if possible for the owner to do so.

That's what bettering the breed should mean. Sticking to the standard as closely as possible (which translates as form = function), breeding for great temperaments (which is a hallmark of the breed), getting all health clearances, and knowing the genetic history of one's breeding program is all anyone can do, and what all breeders *should* do to insure the integrity of the breed.

I can't imagine trying to breed for "markings". Genetically, I'd think it would be close to impossible. Heck, there are many genetic unknowns that are so much more important than "markings" ... I'd think that if you happen to get a beautifully marked Landseer, that's a bonus. (As you can see in my Avatar ... I got a bonus!! :nod

 

[angie j]

It came up for me years ago... when I first started 'searching' goood breeders to purchase a Lanseer Girl, and finding that many Breeders want to breed blacks because they find it harder to place badly 'marked' dogs.

And, yes, for sure Donna, you got the fulll package!!! A real beauty! We have some fine lookin Newf on this Net... one or 2 even as nice as my Lolly-pup.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

There is no way to predict what pattern you will get, so all a landseer breeder can do is try. They can however not breed one that has a color pattern they do not like. In other words, some like the all black head and others like the white pattern on the face. So if you like the black head, then you will breed two landseers with all black heads. The body pattern is harder to predict. But a good landseer breeder will really know their lines. If there is Irish Spotted in the lines, there will be differently marked pups, so a true landseer breeder will try to avoid that. A breeder like that is knowledgeable of the breed and genetics and has carefully bred her dogs. So even if someone only wants a pet, they would be better off buying from a breeder like this. They usually have all the other factors in place too as far as structure, temperament, health, etc.

 

[Ursa]

It came up for me years ago... when I first started 'searching' goood breeders to purchase a Lanseer Girl, and finding that many Breeders want to breed blacks because they find it harder to place badly 'marked' dogs.

Interesting point. That's a big reason why Fargo was so much older than the average puppy when we got him. He certainly doesn't have the perfect Landseer markings. He had littermates with better markings who were gone long before he was. It didn't matter to us as we were more concerned with his health than his looks.

 

[Windancer]

..I just happen to love landseers...always have...my 'goal' in my kennel has always been to breed black type landseers.
Sometimes you succeed wonderfully, sometimes you don't...It is very difficult even within litters...But..once in a while you see that one that stands out in the litter from the first....and you know...there he is ! markings, the whole thing... Even when you get that big boned one, with the markings you love, you have no guarantee that you can reproduce that. Personally, I have never seen an "ugly' marking.. Some are just more pleasing than others...Donna, I love your landseer !