conflicting methodology

Bsmiz

New member
I currently have Quinn(12 weeks) enrolled in a puppy manners class. Concurrently I am reading Ceasar Milan's Raising the Perfect Puppy.

The class puppy trainer is all about the big loud reward for good behavior..."good puppy good puppy good puppy" kind of stuff. Ceasar discourages that high pitched puppy talk.

In your experience, what kind of reward system(s) have best suited your newfs?
 

victoria1140

Active member
what works for one doesnt always work for another. for my newf food, food and more food.

for my gsd calm encouragement
 

Thule's Mom

New member
I currently have Quinn(12 weeks) enrolled in a puppy manners class. Concurrently I am reading Ceasar Milan's Raising the Perfect Puppy.

The class puppy trainer is all about the big loud reward for good behavior..."good puppy good puppy good puppy" kind of stuff. Ceasar discourages that high pitched puppy talk.

In your experience, what kind of reward system(s) have best suited your newfs?
Our trainer used the Volhard method which is a positive reinforcement training method. I didn't use Caesar's method for Thule; she is very sensitive and, for me, some of Caesar's methods are too strong for Thule. We were encouraged to be enthusiastic when praising our pups but no touching, just praise and a treat.

Different methods... different trainers... different dogs. Positive reinforcement worked for Thule.
 

Halli's Mom

New member
My first Newf was not food driven, but she loved praise! She was so proud when she thought she did something great! For her, Praise was the best!

It seems this puppy I have now only wants food. So I agree- it depends on the dog.
 

Jeannie

Super Moderator
Adam was not food driven so his reward was praise. Samantha is/was food. Chase either/or.

I always used the high pitch voice but not too much. It makes training fun. Fun = happier faster training dog
 

R Taft

Active member
My first Newf was not food driven, but she loved praise! She was so proud when she thought she did something great! For her, Praise was the best!

It seems this puppy I have now only wants food. So I agree- it depends on the dog.
Just like Katy.............She smiles so happily when praised. Annbelle and Katy will work for food, but love praise. I do not use the high pitch, I hate it. I just smile and tell them in a normal voice how good they are. And we sometime have play reward. They sense happy. Happy really drives our newfs.
Annabelle's greatest reward is "table"...........When she has a good session, she gets to go on the "table" (a timber box). She is like the proud Queen when she sits on it and gets her praise. I think you have to go with your dog, what works works.
Tessa is a very quiet praise, like just "yes" and a bit of a food jackpot at the end on really good runs. But her favorite is a short play with a sqeeky toy. Or just a sqeek to get her attention...............
 
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pabusinesswoman

New member
Dependant upon the dog...

I am not that familiar with Ceasar's particular methods. However, I have found certain training methods work better for some rather than the other.

Sadie LOVES the praise and mom acting like a nut. She loves her food too but will get more excited if mom gets a little nuts when training. You should see the people in class when I do my little happy dance. I think they believe I have had one too many chickens fly the coop :)

Kayra was the opposite. It was almost like she was embarassed by me. LOL That being said, with her breed mom always had to be a strong alpha when training. I actually had to really tone down my training with the newf.
 
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Pipelineozzy

New member
I prefer positive reinforcement COMPLETELY, and I honestly believe that Cesar Milan has taken dog training back 30 years with his dominance methods. The American College of Veterinary Behaviourists apparently concurs with my thoughts on Milan, as they have publicly chastised the huge drug company, Merial, for advertising on his program and thereby appearing to endorse his methods.
 

wrknnwf

Active member
Puppies (even adult dogs) thrive on silliness and high pitched praise in much the same way that human babies thrive on peek-a-boo, funny faces, and cooing. Humans are hard-wired to respond to babies (of all species) in that way for a very good reason. In the early development stages, these actions are crucial to developing bonding, communication, mimicry, and recognition skills. This phenomenon has been noted in other species as well.

Dogs have developed, through many thousands of years of natural selection and breeding, an uncanny ability to read and respond to human verbal intonations and body language, which surpasses any other species, including apes. And like human babies, they are much more likely to learn and respond favorably when exposed to happy gestures and voices and rewards.

Too often, we think of obedience/manners classes as a regimen of exercises instead of something enjoyable that you get to do with your dog. Your dog will respond quicker and with much more enthusiasm if you make it seem like play. Training should be fun for both of you. If it isn't, something is wrong. Sing to your puppy, squeak or grin at him, jump up and down when he does the littlest thing right (or even just a bit better), just make it fun.

I have not read the book you mentioned, but it sounds like all of the fun has been taken out of training and building a warm relationship with your pup. I agree with Cindy that those methods are ridiculously outdated and set back training to an archaic time when humans resorted to bullying as a method of achieving everything they want. I suspect that your puppy may become bored to tears or unhappy with his training if you leave out the joy.

I do think that a 75 minute session is too long for a wee pup, but remember that you have the option of taking several breaks during the class. I am assuming, however, that a portion of that time is devoted to free play/socilaizing with the other pups, which you do not want to miss. If not, you can leave the building and go for a short walk, some play/bonding time, a pee break or just let your puppy rest while you watch. Remember that you control what happens in class, not the instructor. A good instructor will trust your judgment if you need to take breaks and will fill you in on anything important that you may have missed. And it sounds like your instructor is tuned in to your progress/needs, since she is emailing you with questions/advice.

Keep in mind that a 12 week old puppy has a very short attention span and typically has short bursts of energy before he needs a rest. Training sessions at home should be no longer that 10 minutes at this age.

Whatever you do, don't bore your pup or stifle his natural enthusiasm by being regimented in his training. How you approach this now, will be the basis for how eager he is to learn in the future.
 
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2Paws

New member
Too often, we think of obedience/manners classes as a regimen of exercises instead of something enjoyable that you get to do with your dog. Your dog will respond quicker and with much more enthusiasm if you make it seem like play. Training should be fun for both of you. If it isn't, something is wrong. Sing to your puppy, squeak or grin at him, jump up and down when he does the littlest thing right (or even just a bit better), just make it fun.
I couldn't have said this any better. Henry and Glory love our training sessions because we do make it fun and make it silly even though I still insist on getting the responses that I'm looking for. I also don't have to rely on food to get them to do what I want them to do. That's a very big bonus if you ever plan on participating in any of the working events.

Every dog is different and part of the challenge of training is figuring out what works best for each dog. There isn't one way that is correct for all dogs. That's one of the reasons I don't care for Cesar Milan's training methods.
 

Pipelineozzy

New member
With a 12 week old puppy, the only real formal training i would do would be leash sessions. The remainder of training would be integrated into daily living. Sit would be done over and over throughout the day, but part of normal living, not a formal stop to train thing. Coming when called is done everytime I remember there is a puppy in the house. I don't "set aside" time to train a puppy that age, it's done as part of normal routines. Mealtimes, come to me when called and sit before i put down the dish. Because their attention span is short...formal training tends to bore them, but it's amazing how quickly they catch on if you integrate it into normal life.
 

Newfobsessed

New member
Adam was not food driven so his reward was praise. Samantha is/was food. Chase either/or.

I always used the high pitch voice but not too much. It makes training fun. Fun = happier faster training dog
I agree with everyone else....different dogs, different methods. Like Jeannie, I always use the high voice - my babies seem to really enjoy it and they respond happily and it makes everything more fun. My Gabe could not care about treats, but if I tell him he is the best boy in the world, he smiles from ear to ear. My boxer would sell me for a liver treat, so I am his supplier while we learn.
 

dumainedogs

New member
I've been trying to mix it up a bit with Obie. Sometimes his reward for going potty outside is a liver treat or a couple of kibbles, sometimes a belly rub (oops, left the treat bag inside).. sometimes a little tug with his favorite toy. Always.. there's a good boy dance. I read somewhere if you don't look like an idiot while housetraining your puppy, you're not praising him enough.. and trust me.. I look like an idiot gushing over his little squat at 3:30 a.m. in my pj's and a hoodie! I've worked mostly with little treats for sit, down & stay and try to incorporate it into our interactions throughout the day.
 

CMDRTED

New member
Personally, I won't do anything Cesar Milan says to do, but that's my personal opinion. Food and praise are the usual motivators for me.
 

merrymutts

New member
We have some issues between Penny the Beagle mix and Lily our new adopted French Bulldog and while watching a Milan episode, he did have one method that seems to work well for helping me...and that is taking both girls for a walk at the same time. Different leashes but still walking at the the same time and they can have fun, get some exercise and can focus on this rather than waiting to see if they can get in a growl and try to kick the other ones butt...and I have total control over the situation. Other than that, I've not used any of his methods .

Things are getting better between Lily & Penny; both are bitches with a dominant streak and while Pewnny has been spayed for a long time, Lily has not yet, due to a bladder infection she had when we first got her.

That, however, wil be remedied shortly as the infection is almost done being treated and Lily is settled in; hopefully by having Lily spayed, things will settle down more.

now, all Peggy Sue wishes is that the wee little bulldog will STOP taking her stuffied Mousie.
 

4ondafloor

New member
Not a Milan fan here either. I've watched his show and I don't care for it.
We have three Newfs with three distinct personalities that require three different methods of training rewards. Pae is very treat motivated and loves to be praised in a high pitched voice too.
Sydney, well, Sydney just needs to be shown what you want him to do and he'll pretty much comply if there's food involved. Gojie? He's a nutcase period. He just sees whatever the other two are doing and falls in lockstep because he knows he's next. He accepts a good old fashioned "goooood boy!!" and he's happy and starts prancing.
We walk all three at the same time though. Unless the DH is out of town they always go together.
 

newfy

New member
We took each of our newfs to puppy class, the 1st 10 to 15 min was a play period, then roughly 40 minutes of training, the trainer would make the tasks fun for the pups; praise,treat, make it a game for the pups, they will look forward to the class; practice at home, puppy class once a week till 5 months old, then graduate to basic obedience. I am using the same trainer that I used 6 years ago with Merlin with Tiki now.
 
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