Breeder?

[Social]

This will probably start a huge debate, I hope that it won't.

I have seen many people talk about a "professional breeder"
Can someone please define
Professional breeder
Breeder
Back yard breeder
And
Puppy miller
It is my understanding that none of these terms require any formal education what so ever, is that correct?
If someone were to have formal education in say veterinary science, biology, DNA, Animal husbandry and so on, what classification would they have?
(excluding those that work in a vets office or as a technician I'm talking about real schooling not so much internship or mentorship)

 

[wrknnwf]

I think you mean "responsible" or "reputable" breeder, not professional.

Among other things (This is a very general description that pertains to the US and I'm sure others will add or correct what I didn't think about)...

The term breeder refers to anyone who has bred a dog.

A back yard breeder refers to anyone who breeds dogs on a small scale basis for profit. May or may not test their breeding stock. May or may not show their dogs. Probably didn't select their breeding stock with care (i.e. got their dogs from the pet store or the newspaper or another breeder who will sell a dog on full registration to anyone with the money, etc.) Usually advertises litters in newspapers, Craigslist, etc. Often owns both the male and female and rarely breeds outside of this match. May have more than one breed of dog. May or may not test breeding stock. Dogs may or may not be registered with AKC. Will sell dogs on full registration or limited registration to anyone with the money. May or may not use contracts with buyers. Rarely cares where the puppies go and rarely stays in touch with buyers.

A puppy mill is a breeder who has a fairly large commercial operation. Usually breeds more than two or three breeds of dogs. Churns out litters on a frequent basis to sell to pet shops, other puppy mills and occasionally, the public. May auction off dogs as breeding stock to other puppy mills. Dogs are often caged permanently in crowded conditions. Dogs are bred repeatedly at every opportunity with no rest. Their dogs are considered livestock, not pets. Usually doesn't test breeding stock. Never shows their dogs. Usually doesn't allow public to see their kennels. Dogs may or may not be registered with AKC. Often dogs are registered with other registries. Usually makes money on sheer volume of dogs bred.

A reputable breeder is one who only breeds dogs on an occasional basis and only for a portion of the dog's life. Rarely has more than one breed of dog, sometimes two. Carefully selects mates for the dogs they own and breeds with the goal of perfecting the breed. Has a waiting list of potential buyers before the dogs are bred. Shows their dogs. Tests all breeding stock. Tests pups for congenital diseases and gives first round(s) of vacinnations before sending them to buyers. Socializes pups before they go to new home. Asks many questions of potential buyers before selling to them. All of their dogs are registered with AKC (never any other US registry) and buyers get registration papers upon delivery of the puppy, not later. Only sells on limited registration unless the buyer has a special contract or co-owns with the breeder. Maintains contact with the buyer for the life of the dog. Has a contract specifying what happens to the dog if the buyer can't keep it or if the dog has health problems. A reputable breeder usually is a member of their breed's club.

As far as education goes, a reputable breeder is usually one who has spent many years studying their particular breed. They are often initially mentored by other reputable breeders and select their foundation dogs very carefully. They will not breed a dog that doesn't meet the breed standard and they select mates that will compliment or strengthen any weaknesses that their dog may have. They will discontinue breeding any dog that doesn't produce healthy puppies. They are not trying to make money off of breeding and they usually don't.

Backyard breeders may, in time, become reputable breeders, if they become involved with the breed (i.e. showing, working events, member of a club, etc.). A puppy mill would rarely care about improving the breed or being involved in showing, etc. Making money is all they care about.

 

[Murphy]

Nice comprehensive easy to understand answer Jane !!!!! :wave:

 

[R Taft]

Well Jane said it all........

 

[rayt]

There should not be a debate. Well said, Jane.

 

[Ksullivan]

Perfectly said Jane.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

I'd only add that reputable breeders frequently use outside stud services in their selection of males, recognizing that just because a dog is "in their back yard" does not make them the best choice for a particular female. They don't do the same breeding over and over and over again and never keep back the best pup in the litter. Since their objective is improvement, they often keep the pick pup.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Also that a "formal" education in veterinary science, DNA, or any of those things STILL will not mean that you can assess a dog and apply the standard for that particular breed to the animals at hand.
Most veterinarians have absolutely no interest in or knowledge of breed standards etc., that's not their job.

 

[KodysGrandma]

Wonderful Jane and Cindy. I hope this settles the dust on this issue once and for all and those who belong to any category except 'reputable or responsible" will understand the distain of those of us concerned for the breed (even just owners like me). A BYB who wants to become responsible can listen, learn and ask appropriate questions to further their knowledge. I'm sure all currently responsible breeders would welcome that.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

You are absolutely right Emmie. If you are willing to learn, and understand that you don't "know it all", there are people who are willing to help you attain your goals. It doesn't matter what stage you are at - there is always someone who has more experience and more knowledge. Even the most experienced and reputable breeders often consult amongst themselves on a regular basis - "have you ever seen this? What did you do?" If you go into it with the right attitude, people will come out of the woodwork and be excited and happy that someone is expressing true interest in the breed, and the will help you. If, however, you come out thinking you don't NEED help, or with comments like "breeding is not rocket science"...then you won't GET help!! It's one of the joys, also..of club membership...exposure to the kind of people that CAN and WILL act as mentors.

 

[Social]

Well, breeding isn't rocket science. It's dog breeding. And anyone can be a dog breeder, whereas to be a rocket scientist takes years of school, talent, and a high level of intelligence. I would hate to offend any real rocket scientists.
Thank you for narrowing down the questions, what it looks like to me is, they are all pretty loose. And none are "professional". A "BYB" could "elevated" to "reputable" breeder with mentorship of someone considered (by whom is not clear) "responsible"?
If a "BYB" fills all other requirements but breeds only to their own males, are they still "BYB's"? How many qualifications need to be met before a "BYB" goes to responsible, or puppy mill to BYB?

 

[Angela]

Social,
Jane and Cindy have explained it very well. I suggest if you don't understand something they have written, then PM them.
Also, check your PMs from me.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Angela, no...I'm sorry, but I don't want her to PM me. Posting in replies to her threads are only for the benefit of anyone else who reads them, I learned a long time ago that she is not interested in learning anything and only wants to pick fights with anyone who doesn't agree with her. If this gets me demerits..so be it.
I've had past experience with her, and realize that there is NO interest in learning, but leaving a thread without commenting means that the people who are genuinely here to get information just don't get what they need. So, it's a fine line, and at this point...I just want the people who actually care about this breed to still be able to come here and get valid information. I'm not trying to be offensive in any way, it's just reality from where I stand.

 

[rayt]

Thank you, Cindy. I hope you, Jane and all others that have VALUABLE information keep posting. That is why I am on this site.

 

[Ivoryudx]

....leaving a thread without commenting means that the people who are genuinely here to get information just don't get what they need. So, it's a fine line, and at this point...I just want the people who actually care about this breed to still be able to come here and get valid information. I'm not trying to be offensive in any way, it's just reality from where I stand.

Thank You Cindy, this is very true for many of us.

 

[new_2_newf]

Well, breeding isn't rocket science. It's dog breeding. And anyone can be a dog breeder, whereas to be a rocket scientist takes years of school, talent, and a high level of intelligence. I would hate to offend any real rocket scientists.
Thank you for narrowing down the questions, what it looks like to me is, they are all pretty loose. And none are "professional". A "BYB" could "elevated" to "reputable" breeder with mentorship of someone considered (by whom is not clear) "responsible"?
If a "BYB" fills all other requirements but breeds only to their own males, are they still "BYB's"? How many qualifications need to be met before a "BYB" goes to responsible, or puppy mill to BYB?

I think Cindy said it quite plainly. What Cindy means (and correct me if I am wrong here) is that anyone, regardless of their past, can learn new things and change their ways. Meaning someone who was breeding in a way that would be widely accepted as unethical, or BYB, may potentially see the error of their ways and learn new things and breed in an ethical fashion.

The problem that I see with only breeding the males a breeder has to the females a breeder has is this: if your stock is limited (say you have two males and two females), you are likely not pairing the best male to your female and visa versa.

Here is an example (and these names are totally made up, I don't mean to draw a parallel to anyone on here)

Doug has two newf bitches and a stud. He bread his stud to both of his bitches in the past and they produced acceptable puppies that fit standard, but they were not 'show quality' (aka REALLY good) pups. Does Doug do the same mediocre breeding again? If he's looking simply to sell puppies, he might (this would be leaning towards BYB). If he is looking to better the breed by producing some really awesome newf pups (the dream for all ethical breeders), he would likely be looking around at either bitches that compliment his stud or studs to compliment one of his bitches, or both.

There is NOTHING simple about that combination... from what I understand it takes years to get the hang of it, and sometimes it comes down to trying out a breeding and seeing what happens. And it isn't something that everyone is good at (sort of like painting...some create a Picasso, others make stick people).

There are no hard and fast rules that govern the categories a breeder may get classified under, but if I can't walk into your kennel, meet your dogs, see pedigrees, championships, see copies of health clearances for both parents, a copy of your contract, get your club information, and your dogs don't look like the breed standard, I'm fairly certain you'd be in the 'less than ethical' category and I wouldn't want to get a puppy from you.

 

[Tricia2]

This is another example of Social Boons inciting an argument and walking away in the manner of the auto that causes a three car pile-up but drives away unscathed. Smite me, demerit me, ban me....do whatever you like. But be assured this person is aware that she is causing disturbances and she is reveling in her manipulation. If it acts like a troll, posts like a troll....it's probably a troll.

I believe that if you look at all the contentious threads in the recent past, there is one person with several personas.

 

[Cascadians]

Hey folks, I want to throw something out here. I'm in the PacNW where it's really hard to get a great Newf locally.

Y'all know what's really weird? The NCA put up that super useful Breeder Website Red Flag page, and has a list of breeders that meet their qualifications to be listed with the NCA. And y'all are posting well known FACTS about what constitutes a good breeder.

I must tell you that despite these well known common sense FACTS I have run across "recommended" breeders in the PacNW who

1 Have no website
2 Will not answer phone calls or emails and take offense if you say "Hi" in person
3 Pooh-pooh testing
4 Get suspicious and snarky and rude when you express an enthusiastic interest in Newf puppies and want to see their kennel

I am not going to name names but some on here have witnessed exactly what I'm talking about.

My point is that I wish some of these breeders would read these threads and the NCA website! That goes for NCA higher ups too. Walk your talk!

The mixed messages disconnect is part of why there is confusion about breeders.

I myself am not confused but here in the PacNW consternation and confusion reigns rampant amongst newbies. I am simply permanently disgusted at the blatant hypocrisy.

I have not experienced the hypocrisy at all on Newf Net. Here it's helpful sharing and acknowledgement of common sense and facts.

 

[Sun Valley]

Amen Cindy! Closing threads and private pm's don't benefit anyone. Especially the people who can take advice and welcome it.

LA

 

[Angela]

This is another example of Social Boons inciting an argument and walking away in the manner of the auto that causes a three car pile-up but drives away unscathed. Smite me, demerit me, ban me....do whatever you like. But be assured this person is aware that she is causing disturbances and she is reveling in her manipulation. If it acts like a troll, posts like a troll....it's probably a troll.

We are aware of this, but, the only person who can ban a member for ever is GAD.