Inbreeding

[BlackLightning]

I have a coworker that is doing research on getting a Boxer. She had a discussion last night with a woman that is breeding a brother and sister. They are from different litters, but exact same pedigrees. I thought this was considered too close. I know there are times when breeders line breed, but isn't this just flat-out inbreeding?? It made me question the reputation of this breeder. Am I wrong? We were talking about it and I really didn't know whether this is considered an acceptable practice.

 

[Murphy]

Well I'm no expert but just common sense and the ewwwwww factor should say a big FAT NO... In my limited experience it just goes against nature.. :uhoh2:
I have never read anywhere about breeding siblings on purpose. It just has to be wrong.

 

[Angela]

I'm pretty sure that is wrong, wrong, wrong!!

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

That is inbreeding and not line breeding.

 

[ardeagold]

That is close inbreeding versus distant inbreeding which is considered to be line breeding.

I have to go back and find a paper I read a while ago about this kind of close inbreeding and what kind (brother/sister, daughter/father, mother/son, etc) is considered acceptable in certain circumstances, and what isn't...and why.

It has to do with creating new lines...and there are parameters/guidelines to follow. It's just not done willy-nilly.

 

[BlackLightning]

My first reaction was "that can't be good!". I know very little about this breeder, but she said she is at this point only looking for show homes (the pups have already been born and are almost old enough to be placed). She said she expected the pups will finish their championships. No idea if that means anything really. My coworker was not keen on the brother/sister situation. She said the two parents looked almost identical and so did the pups.

 

[ardeagold]

Remember ... all dogs are linebred. All purebred dog breeds are inbred somewhere along the line, but the COI (coefficient of inbreeding) differs.

Closely bred dogs have a higher COI percentage...dogs whse lines share one, perhaps two distant ancestors has a lower COI. But both lines, by definition are somewhat "inbred".

Here's one article about linebreeding versus inbreeding...and outcrossing, and the reasons "why". But I'm still looking for the really good article I read in the past:

http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm

 

[M & M's Mom Linda]

What is considered "inbreeding" and what is considerd "line breeding. Just curious...A sibling or parent might be inbreeding but a grandparent or great-grandparent might be line-breeding?

 

[ardeagold]

Really...the term line breeding is a misnomer. It's all inbreeding, but the COI (percentage of similar genes) is different.

Here's an article by the renowned John Armstrong that may help you understand:

http://www.canine-genetics.com/relation.htm

And this is a link to the Canine Diversity Project which has a lot of information for those who are interested:

http://www.canine-genetics.com/

 

[Ginny]

The problem with that close an inbreeding is the you're doubling up on the same genetic pool. Any recessive or polygenetic traits are far more likely to show up. A breeder has to really know their pedigrees and what's lurking in their dogs' genetics before trying such a combo.

 

[M & M's Mom Linda]

Thanks you...Donna. The articles explained inbreeding well.

 

[Thule's Mom]

breeding a brother and sister... I don't know about breeding dogs.. but the whole idea of that is enough to give me the 'heebie-jeebies'...... alarm bells should go off for your friend too.

 

[2Paws]

Very interesting articles. Thank you Donna!

 

[Newfobsessed]

Thanks for the articles Donna!! Boxers are my second favorite breed, and they are SO prone to so many health issues, I think this breeding could only be a bad move for you to get a puppy from. Find another breeder would be my suggestion. Check the lines and if they have some of the excellent boxer lines, go for that breeder!

 

[BlackLightning]

My coworker has decided to keep looking at other breeders. She talked to the woman about why she did it and she discovered it wasn't planned!!! NOT A GOOD SIGN!!!! That set off BIG alarm bells for me. Even though this breeder apparently has a lot of champions and has been doing it for what she said was 20+ years, that is ridiculous to me.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

My coworker has decided to keep looking at other breeders. She talked to the woman about why she did it and she discovered it wasn't planned!!! NOT A GOOD SIGN!!!! That set off BIG alarm bells for me. Even though this breeder apparently has a lot of champions and has been doing it for what she said was 20+ years, that is ridiculous to me.

Well it can happen and at least she was honest. That does not make the pups bad. Since the sire and the dam are siblings from different litters, then the younger one is from a repeat breeding. If she repeated the breeding, then she must have liked the results of the first breeding.

 

[Windancer]

I have noticed alot of other breed fancys breed much closer that we would consider in newfoundlands...ie. Akitas...

 

[BlackLightning]

Well it can happen and at least she was honest. That does not make the pups bad. Since the sire and the dam are siblings from different litters, then the younger one is from a repeat breeding. If she repeated the breeding, then she must have liked the results of the first breeding.

What bothered me is that she knew her bitch was in heat, had no intention of breeding her to the brother and then "oops!", she got bred. I don't know that that is my definition of a responsible breeder. She has only done the breeding once and it was this non-planned breeding. Sorry if I was confusing in my last posts about that. She did not repeat the breeding, she just has this one "oops" litter from the brother and sister.

 

[BluwaterNewfs]

Breeding a brother to sister whether from the same litter or a repeat breeding is still incest or inbreeding, which ever you want to called it. Done on purpose, it is a BIG red flag. Done by accident, that means the owner was not paying attention to her girls. In my opinion, another big red flag!

If you want to have an intact bitch in your house, then you need to take the proper precautions when she is on season, whether you plan to breed her not. And believe I know it is not the easiest thing in the world. I have had 5 bitches in season with 3 intact males at the same time in my house.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

What bothered me is that she knew her bitch was in heat, had no intention of breeding her to the brother and then "oops!", she got bred. I don't know that that is my definition of a responsible breeder. She has only done the breeding once and it was this non-planned breeding. Sorry if I was confusing in my last posts about that. She did not repeat the breeding, she just has this one "oops" litter from the brother and sister.

You said... "she was breeding a brother and sister. They are from different litters, but exact same pedigrees".

If they are from the same parents but different litters, then that was a repeat breeding. Even if she knew her bitch was in season, mistakes happen...gates can come open, dogs can jump fences to get to a bitch, etc.
I do not know this breeder, so I don't know how responsible or irresponsible this breeder is, but just trying to help you make sense of this situation if everything the breeder says is true.