Help!!

[TNeuf]

O.k., I was going to let this die, but I couldn't resist! They still use Mercury in vaccines, they just call them prettier names. Thimerosal is the one they are looking at more closely in relation to various autoimmune diseases (thimerosal is an ethyl-mercury). There is much evidence to support the fact that smallpox was well on its way out when the vaccine was introduced (pretty interesting numbers to look at). I'd rather my kids get measles and/or mumps and be immune for life, healthier, and with stronger immune systems, not compromised ones. They're not going to try and vaccinate themselves when they grow up. Why would they?

Notice that the drug companies keep coming out with more and more vaccines? When does it end? Every new vaccine introduction is preceeded with the same old scare tactics, "FLU kills a gazillion people every year"! Chicken pox used to be thought of as a pretty mild thing, now my kids bring home brochures with big, mean looking monsters on them that are supposed to depict the evil, dreaded chicken pox virus on the hunt for young flesh!

Vaccines are given when children are young, and with large and repeated doses because they have found that to be the time when parents bring their children in to the doctors. There is no science there, just economics. The CDC, just like our Health Canada, is not exactly an unbiased site. There's a reason that the pharmaceutical companies are so powerful and it may have something to do with knowing the right people.

There have been many studies out on autism and vaccines. Here's just a snippet of one. I'm sure if you want you could search for the rest. It was pretty big news here last year when this study came out.
Autism:
Thimerosal, found in childhood vaccines, can increase the risk of autism-like damage in mice

MATERIAL SOURCE: MOLECULAR PSYCHIATRY

Public Release date: 8-June-2004

A new study indicates that postnatal exposure to thimerosal, a mercury preservative commonly used in a number of childhood vaccines, can lead to the development of autism-like damage in autoimmune disease susceptible mice. This animal model, the first to show that the administration of low-dose ethylmercury can lead to behavioral and neurological changes in the developing brain, reinforces previous studies showing that a genetic predisposition affects risk in combination with certain environmental triggers. The study was conducted by researchers at the Jerome L. and Dawn Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory at the Mailman School of Public Health, Columbia University.

Phew...o.k. I'm tired. Maybe I should go watch that movie you guys were talking about.

Take care,
Tara

 

[Varmint]

Originally posted by TNeuf:
They're not going to try and vaccinate themselves when they grow up. Why would they?

)

okay - I'm very confused. Above is what you just wrote tonight. And here is what your wrote earlier .... "I think the argument about stopping them from being world travellers is a little exaggerated. If they want to travel the world and they need a certain vaccine when they grow up, they can get it! "

That was the comment I was responding too. Now your saying they wouldn't vaccinate themselves? Then I was right, they cannot go to certain countries, including England, France, Ireland etc. without vaccinations. They keep a record of vacc history in your passport and they have to be up to date in order to travel.

Smallpox was on its way out? Then why were thousands of people dying from it in third world countries just 10 years ago? Small pox vaccine has been around since my parents were little in the 1940's (possibly even before that). These third world countries have received the small pox vaccine thanks to world wide charity organizations and now small pox is no longer there. I think that is good enough numbers for me.

I'm also just wondering if you actually read the article you posted. Autism-like symptoms is not autism. "autism-like damage in autoimmune disease susceptible mice." These mice already have compromised immune systems. We do not vaccinate children with compromised immune systems. My son was born 9 weeks early and the Dr's have been very hesitant to give him vaccines because of this, even though he has been as healthy as any newborn can be. "studies showing that a genetic predisposition affects risk in combination with certain environmental triggers"..there has to be a genetic predisposition before it affects anyone. Which means that these children would get these symptoms sometime in their lives and that the vaccine may "jump start" it. This is what I read into the article you posted. Maybe the whole article would be beneficial.

Now I do agree with you. Over vaccinating can lead to problems. Which is why the medical profession has limited a number of these vaccine's. Now I don't know about any brochures that you are receiving regarding the chicken pox vaccine, but I've only seen one's that give the pros and cons. Of course, I do live in Indiana so the information may be different. When I was given the option of the vaccine, I was told that getting chicken pox is the only sure fire way of being mostly immune to the disease for life. I was told the truth and I have my child go to a regular pediatrition. I have never felt pressured or scared or brainwashed when it came to this subject. I did not get my child the chickenpox vaccine because I don't think he needs it. As for having him get polio, measles, mumps and the such, I'd rather take the small risk (less than 1%) of him getting a little sick from the vaccine than him getting the disease and risking 20 - 50% chance that he will die or live the rest of his life crippled. A mother of a friend of mine has severe leg cramps and cannot walk right because she is a survivor of polio. She also suffers from severe migraines and they think it is because of the polio. I would rather not put my child through this. Again this is just my opinion and I, too, have done extensive research when my child was born soo early. I didn't want to do anything that would harm him. Now, I understand that the chances that unvaccinated kids will never in their lives get these diseases. IMO that is because everyone else's children are vaccinated. When antibiotics first came out there were many people who believed that penicillian would damage the immune system. When it was proven it wouldn't, many in the medical proffession started to overprescribe the drug. They now understand that this is where the drug can be damaging, and they now do not hand it out like candy anymore. That is what has happened with the vaccinations, they now understand that overvaccinating was not necessary, and they are changing their procedures. The pharmacutical company's are not big, bad evil entities (okay, the Dr's there aren't, but the business people I may have to give you that.) These Dr's are not out to make everyone sick. They are there to help people. I would not be alive today if it weren't for those "evil" people. Actually, there is a science behind giving vaccines while young. It is because the immune system is at its healthiest at that point. It has not been exposed to anything that would affect the vaccine. The cold virus as an example can affect your immune system so it is not as likely to react with the vaccine as well as an immune system that has not had that many colds yet.

Now, I hope that I have not gone to far. I am just giving you the information that I have and I am not saying that you are wrong. (many think I am wrong for not giving the chickenpox vaccine.) You are a parent, and you are doing what you feel is right and I deeply respect that. I do have to say that I wish I had your will power to feed your kids the way you do, but I am bad when it comes to food. I would like to read more about the what you said about organic, whole processed foods with out chemicals (or something to that extent) Can you recommend a way to start researching that. I have tried, but I just get confused. I need something like "eating right for dummies book".

 

[NewfyChic]

Phew...I always said a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. If you read the labels on the back of your COMMON meds, tylenol,aspirin,etc. You would NOT take it. Sounds like an ex-patient of ours, she litterally read the PDR (Physicians Desk Reference) and called us every week telling us what new disorder/disease she got from some med. I think for me it is this simple. Better safe than sorry, Our doctors go to school for many years to study this stuff. I do NOT believe in the whole holistic stuff..JMHO. Don't bash me on this. My son is ADHD. When I first found this out 8 months ago I thought of medication. I was on it per I had ADD, Ritylin in fact and I am just dandy. However, a Mother of a child I watch suggested some holistic stuff. You know what she brought me? Tarantula eggs!! in a vial from a holistic/natural store. Do you HONESTLY think I am going to give my son something that is NOT approved by the FDA? I don't think so. I will stick to the things that HAVE been studied and approved rather than someones opinion on things that are on researched and never approved. Is this to say that all remedies and medications work? Absolutley not. And bad things happen. That is life..I will absolutely vaccinate my dogs and my children. Here in WV, you child CANNOT enter the school system without a vaccination record from BIRTH, not just when they feel like it. I have to honestly ask. Why would anyone take the risk of a life? No matter it be human or furkid? It's not like you can go back and fix what should have been once it is too late. Why would you risk that?

[ 02-23-2005, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: NewfyChic ]

 

[Erin Marie]

Because we feel we are risking their lives giving them those vaccines.

 

[Nasus]

Oh all those evil vacs that have saved millions of children world wide.. Jonas Salk that evil man winning the Noble for Medicine.. evil! evil! evil! How dare he give these childen worldwide a vac that would poison there sweet bodies, and not allow them to have polio.. after all polio is natural.. Give me a brake!

Susan

 

[sarnewfie]

NoW lOOk what you started bo mom!
you are TROUBLE i tell ya, TROUBLE!

my opinion basically falls the same lines as kerchunk.
great debate!

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

There certainly can be problems with vaccinations as with any med or treatment, but I have always felt that getting the vaccination is much better than getting disease. Many of those diseases are horrible if not fatal. There really is a small percentage of problems with vaccinations. I have gone with the 3 yr vaccination schedule instead of the annual 5 in 1 distemper series. Titers are good too. The scary part is many animal diseases are airborn or brought home on clothing or shoes, so hard to avoid.
I am surprised, Tara, your children's school has allowed this non vaccination practice. I guess they are home schooled.

 

[Varmint]

Hi Tara - Look what we have started! eeks. I think at this point it will be good to say that we will have to agree to disagree. I respect your decision even though I disagree with it, as I hope you respect my decision. This has been a great debate and I hope we, as well as everyone else, has learned something from it.

Newfychic - I too suffer from adult ADD. I am worried that my son may have it because of how much it runs in my family. Are you giving your son the meds? I was just curious because I do not take the medication, I didn't like the way it made me feel, and I was wondering how he reacted to the meds.....

Bo's Mom - You are such a trouble maker!!!!

 

[TNeuf]

As I said earlier, children can go to school in Canada without vaccinations, it's the law based on the Charter of Human Rights. My kids aren't home schooled.

About my kids vaccinating (or not) when they grow up, I mean that they will not go and get the full series of the vaccinations, maybe they will decide they need the specific ones to go somewhere that requires it. You do not need a full series of immunizations to travel.

Everyone has a right to their opinions, but I really am surprised by some of the 'risking my kid's lives' responses.

Whitney: About me sounding like an ex-patient of yours that sounded like a bit of a hypocondriac, I can assure you that I have more than "a little bit of knowledge which can be a dangerous thing". As a nutritionist, this has been one of my focused areas of study. I didn't merely visit one or two websites and make up my mind. If you were to visit me you would see that I have shelves full of books and binders full of studies and information (both for and against vaccines) that I've received over the years. Please do not equate holistic living with such insanity as tarantula eggs. I have to wonder how much knowledge you have in this arena. I'm not trying to slam you, but you are making comments about a lack of knowledge in an area and then you make a comment that shows that you may not really have much information about this topic. I find it frustrating when people feel they can do this because their position is in the majority.

As an aside, ADHD is studied by many different institutions. There has been much research about the positive results obtained with diet and especially supplementing EFAs with these children. I'm sure you guys have looked into this already though.

About the organic, whole foods diet we consume, maybe that would be a friendlier topic to cover in a PM or something.....er maybe not. I can feel the white bread hitting me in the head already!

Tara

 

[bo'smom]

Originally posted by Ker Chunk:
Bo's Mom - You are such a trouble maker!!!!

Well, hey.....ya go with what you're good at!

Tara, I sent you a PM.

 

[Varmint]

Originally posted by TNeuf:

As an aside, ADHD is studied by many different institutions. There has been much research about the positive results obtained with diet and especially supplementing EFAs with these children. I'm sure you guys have looked into this already though.

Tara

I would diffently like to know more about this. As I stated before, the conventional meds made me feel weird and I didn't like it. I am open to more unconventional methods.

As for holistic medicine. I believe in a combination of both. When one fails, I have no problems going to the other. I don't believe it is considered holistic meds to eat/or obsorb trantuala eggs, that sound more like "witch dr's" then in holistic. (please note I put the phrase in quotes)

Since this is a holistic/natural forum, I agree with Tara, lets get this back to that subject. I want to learn more about natural nutrition. I have done some research on the "injections" given to cattle and it scares me. I want to learn more about how to go about avoiding this for my family and my furkids. I have found that the more nutritous food it, the more expensive it is. We live on a budget and I cannot budget to afford this. I think I must be missing something. I now purchase "cage free eggs" and try to buy organic when it is available. Educating ourselves is the only way to avoid error of the past......

Lets please try to keep this positive. ANd I am saying that to myself as well......

 

[Ivoryudx]

This is a very good debate, and I compliment everyone for keeping it level headed!

Personally, I believe we have been over vaccinating our dogs for many years, and Newfoundlands overall, seem to be extremely sensitive to vaccines, and autoimmune problems. On the other hand, I believe we are living very dangerously to just stop vaccinating entirely, when its so simple to run titers. (I honestly have no opinion on children, I have not thought about it, I'll stick to dogs)

Dogs are exposed to many things, especially at shows, or dog events. Not everyone is careful about their canine health care, and sanitary conditions of their pets.

After discussing this at length with my vet, this is the protocol that I use:
Puppy series on a delayed schedule, then vaccinate at a year. After that, titer every year and vaccinate, or not, based upon the results. My older girl has consistently needed a Parvo vaccine every year, and my boy needed Distemper two years ago. I'm currently awaiting this years result.

My guys get Bordetella on a yearly, or six month schedule, depending on our travel schedule/locations. My young girl is just getting over a mild case of kennel cough that she picked up at a show two weeks ago. She just had her Bordetella last November and it may be why this was such a mild case. My older two did not get it, even though they all have been together the whole time.

Susan

 

[TNeuf]

Thank you Valerie, yes, let's get this onto something else (maybe I can mention that at least when you posted I got to look forward to that big, smoochy little nose in your avatar

About the ADHD. Here's a little snippet about the EFAs:

Children with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) have problems paying attention, listening to instructions, and completing tasks; they also fidget and squirm, are hyperactive, blurt out answers, and interrupt others.

It is conservatively estimated that 3-5% of the school-age population has ADHD. Although drugs, such as Ritalin, are frequently used to treat ADHD, they are fraught with complications. Disadvantages include possible side effects, including decreased appetite and growth, insomnia, increased irritability, and rebound hyperactivity when the drug wears off.

One would not expect to find that a single cause or even a handful of factors could explain why ADHD appears to be so rampant in our society. Because it is accepted that both genetic and environmental factors play a role in ADHD, many other factors-both intrinsic and extrinsic-could influence an individual's fatty acid status.

Inefficient Conversion of ALA (Flax Oil) To EPA And DHA

A possible cause for the low fish oil status of the ADHD children may be impaired conversion of the fatty acid precursors LA and ALA to their longer and more highly unsaturated products, such as EPA and DHA (fish oil fats).

It appears that children with ADHD just are not able to chemically convert the plant omega-3, ALA to fish oil very well. The problem is further worsened when omega-6 fats are consumed and the ideal omega-6:3 ratio of 1:1, progresses to the typical standard American ratio of 15:1. Many of these children have ratios which are even worse and can be as high as 50:1.

This study provides the research evidence supporting the use of the omega-3 fats found in fish oils to effectively address the underlying deficiency that is present in most of these children and appears to be contributing to the ADHD.

American Journal Clinical Nutrition January 2000:71(1), 327-330

**********
Diet plays such a major role in not only how we look, but how we function mentally, physically and even emotionally. Both of my daughters have kids in their classes that have ADHD. Sometimes they come home and tell me what that child ate for lunch (marshmallows for a snack and some sort of "Lunchables" stuff ) and it's my kids that shake their heads. If I fed that to my child, who doesn't have ADHD, she would be hyperactive and moody. Heck, I would be too! I'm not trying to oversimplify, just to say that food is definitely a contribuiting factor in not only ADHD but other conditions and diseases as well.

If you want to talk about if in more detail Valerie, you can PM me.

Tara

 

[Nasus]

I'd rather my kids get measles and/or mumps and be immune for life, healthier, and with stronger immune systems, not compromised ones. They're not going to try and vaccinate themselves when they grow up. Why would they?

well i pray and i mean pray hard that your children if girls NEVER get Measles when there adult and preg.. i have seen the results.. u don't want to know !

 

[Largo]

This is a really good debate. Information sharing, got to love it!

My routine is the same as Ivory's. In fact Bax and DC go in tomorrow for their titers.

I am one of those who fell into the "less than one percent is adversly affected category," The MMR vaccination literally, nearly took my life.

[ 02-24-2005, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Largo ]

 

[TNeuf]

Hi Nasus,
I do know the results of a woman being exposed to measles when she is pregnant. Unfortunately this can happen to a woman even if she is vaccinated. My daughters have both had mild cases of the measles. Thanks for your prayers all the same.

 

[NewfyChic]

Originally posted by TNeuf:

I have to wonder how much knowledge you have in this arena. I'm not trying to slam you, but you are making comments about a lack of knowledge in an area and then you make a comment that shows that you may not really have much information about this topic. I find it frustrating when people feel they can do this because their position is in the majority.

Tara

Just for the record, I have 15 years of experience in the Medical Field. Neurology to be exact.

 

[Largo]

Whitney, I had an aunt that passed away 11 years ago from sickle cell anemia. We believe that she was the longest lived in this country who suffered from the diseases.

She was born in a time where medical treatment for african americans left a lot to be desired. And an understanding of the disease was not what it is today. Infact medical doctors back then, all, mis-diagnosed her.

My grandmother used treatments for her that are considered holistic today. As an adult, she contined with these things. Most expecially concerning her diet. I don't think she would have lived as long as she did had she not. "Western medicine" although obvioulsy helpful wrecked havoc on her body.

So to right off a treatment in one fell swoop because it has not been approved by the FDA is foolish.

Tara, people use to come from miles and miles black and white to see my grandmother. She even treated their animals. She could take a walk in the woods, come back and have you fixed right up. She kept detailed records of all of her methods, treatments, remedies, resoning, ect. Unfortunately, her book and medical bag where lost in a fire. My aunt Azaline knows a lot of what my grandmother use to do and use, but she's having troubles these days. But I keep plugging away at her.

edited to add: She was 21 years old before she recieved her first blood transfusion.

[ 02-24-2005, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Largo ]

 

[TNeuf]

Rona,

I would have loved to have met your Granmother. This kind of knowledge and experience that has been passed down over the ages is so powerful. Look at traditional chinese medicine which has also become bigger in the West. I think we sometimes forget that we're only a small percentage of this planet and there are different approaches other than allopathic medicine. Heaven knows that N. Americans aren't a healthy bunch!

 

[Erin Marie]

We all are trying to do what is right for our families. This is a hot topic anywhere. I think the women on this board who are going to have their babies in the hospital are brave. I have mine at home. Most vaccinate their children because you are concerned with their safety, I don't cause I am concerned with their safety. I feel that we have placed too much blind faith in our doctors. They went to school, but they are still just practicing medicine. Some better then others. Once there was a vaccine for the rotavirus that was FDA approved, CDC said it was safe and that our children needed it to be safe. It's not used anymore, cause it was killing babies. Ooops! Our bad! In the long run we are all just trying to do what is right for our families.