Brown Landseer - Rare?

[only1bmd]

I adopted a brown and white newf with green eyes from a shelter in Illinois. (Sorry I didn't know better at the time).

What do you mean by you did not know any better? What is wrong with a Brown with with white newf other than that you cannot show it in conformation?

Also any color Newf can have heart problems I have a freind who has 2 black (could have been champion material otherwise) newfs who have various heart problems (one worse than the other)who will be living their lives with her as pets until they pass peacefully.

 

[JPerrelli]

Sorry, I should have clarified what I meant by I didn't know any better. I meant that I purchased the puppy from this shelter who bought the puppies from a back yard breeder. I didn't mean to imply that because the puppy was brown and white it had heart problems. The puppy had heart problems because of poor breeding.
I don't think there's anything wrong with a brown and white newf. I don't show my dogs, so the color makes no difference to me.
I would prefer not to support back yard breeders is what I meant.
The puppy (Sofie) had an enlarged heart and went into heart failure. I had 2 cardiologists check her to make sure there was nothing we could do for her. I would have done anything to help her.

 

[ingriddavis]

Brown & whites

It is important to realize the standard in all of this. These color combinations are "undesirable". Anyone breeding away from the standard is not bettering the breed.
Some may ask why, why not breed multicolors, what difference would it make? The answer rests with those people, years ago, who intuitively understood genetics, and created the standards. The black color is the dominate color gene, while the other colors are recessives. The movement away from the dominant genes, lessens the attributes greatly "cherished" in the breed; basically the defining character of the breed.
The first generation a brown and white Newf may display the characteristics of the breed: massive bone, correct proportions, ie height gained from depth of chest, not length of leg, lovely temperament, etc.
The next generation one will notice a Newf that resembles a setter, and the generation after, the Newf will no longer display enough characteristics to be considered a Newf at all.
The breeding will become "watered" down, thus the term "Undesirable".

The breeding of quality browns and Landseers is much more challenging than that of breeding blacks, due to the influence of the recessive genes.
A breeder must be quite skilled, with great knowledge of pedigrees, and genetics to produce a quality Newf, and even more so, a Landseer or brown. When even more colors are added to the genetic color gene pool, the ability to produce quality Newfs is almost impossible. This is true of any dog; check the standards - there are always disqualifying colors, for this reason.

 

[StrwbrryFlds4evr]

The breeder we bought Berry from has been breeding the bronze ones for about 16 yrs. Personally, I just prefer the color (and don't ever plan on breeding). She also breeds champion horses and cattle. Her dogs are gorgeous (and not all are bronze). She breeds them for type and to improve the breed, she's said... and she also happens to fancy the bronze coloration.

I dunno, I never plan on showing any of my dogs anyway. LOL.

The bronze ones look like grizzly bears.

 

[sarnewfie]

I would like to play devils advocate.
How does one know that using these other colors will stray from what they are intended?
Did anyone try it yet??
I am talking someone who actually cares and knows what they are doing.
Not some joe schmoe.
Look at Great Danes, they are accepting more and more color variations, and, they have not changed in look.
Look at the cocker spaniel. They also have a wide variety of color that is more and more being acceptable.
I am curious how one can say that if not done correctlyl, why would people say that the type or temp etc.. would suffer?

 

[Piratebears]

Good point sarnewfie !
I ( as you know ) have 2 greys and a brown .My first grey (Merlin)

came from black parents - both who ( like with white lions ) carried the recesive Dilute gene - thus throwing a little grey bundle of joy.Merlins Mum had also previously had 2 litters,the first all black , then the second had 3 greys and blacks.Amongst the 2nd litter,one black has gone on to do great things in the show ring ( CH ),and his litter sister - a grey has produced a JW herself (Black ).My point is,a perfect black dog produced black puppies - no problem,she also then threw a few greys - so obviously unknowingly carried the dilute gene along with the sire.
The mixed litter produced stunning progeny,the blacks and greys from the litter perfect breed standard,the grey went on to produce stunning all black progeny.,one of which is the mother of my new grey girl.
So,why is it that the litter sister to my Minnie ( Black ) is acceptable as "breed standard" to better the breed,yet my Minnie - possibly better looking and better "type" and confirmation - (and who would almost certainly produce black pups sire dependant ) would be frowned apon ?
SARNEWFIE is right,if it improves the breed,enhances the gene pool and is done to produce good pups and not a "colour freak show" I see no problem and would challenge anyone that does.

 

[Liisa]

Regardless of color... Zoe, your grey girl pup is seriously cute and very huggable!!!! :kiss:

 

[Piratebears]

Aww thanks .... you had better not look at the "S'not pretty " post in Newfie pics !!

 

[Liisa]

Too late! But she's still adorable...even with the drippy nose!

 

[cedarvalleynewfoundlands]

I guess I am a little bit confused here. I understand that the brown and whites and grey and whites are undesirable colors, but as far as I understood there arent any health or conformation issues (except color of course) with either. I have seen beautiful brown and whites, although I have only ever seen 1 grey and white. I know with white boxers and dobermans, the gene that produces the white is also responsible for deafness and other health issues. A double dose of the merle gene is also associated with health problems in Danes and other breeds. Is there a similar situation in Newfs?
I agree with SAR on this one. If there isnt a health reason, then I dont really understand why the other colors arent accepted. If the color gene isnt associated with other conformation issues, then I dont understand why type would be lost.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

Some greys do have different health issues that blacks do not have. Some have leathery, hairless ears or sparse coats or coats that are uneven in color. That is why some show breeders try not to breed them, since it is unpredictable as to what they might get. They also are harder to show, which is unfortunate as there are some beautiful ones out there.

 

[Piratebears]

We can't show them at all in England - the greys have been known to suffer with C.D.A (Colour Dilute Alopecia ),this is usually apparant by the time they are 6 months old,some cases as late as 2 or 3 years.
It is a lot less common in Newf's , the most common breed to suffer with C.D.A are the Dobermans.
Its not very well documented amongst Newfoundlands as we have comparitively so few greys to study.
We always thought our boy had skin problems due to being grey - but it turned out to be from the lake we swam in! his cleared up after a few weeks and now all the blacks and browns have it non stop!
I know of 10 greys in the UK ( I'm sure there are more,but I only have met 10),None of which have C.D.A,I know many many blacks that have skin problems.
I agree that with the amount of problems our lovely breed have already,we should not willingly throw another issue into the pot and breed specificly for colours with problems i.e grey.However,to me the only reason against breeding from a grey would be to produce a grey,but with the right mating one could prouce Blacks.

 

[BluwaterNewfs]

However,to me the only reason against breeding from a grey would be to produce a grey,but with the right mating one could prouce Blacks.

This is ONE of many reasons it is important to know the pedigrees of of both the potentail sire and dam your are going to breed. Its not just what you know they can throw but also what they might throw.

 

[jumpinnewf]

Someone on this site has a brown and white Newf....plus a Landseer Newf. I think they're siblings?

I'm with SAR on this one. But since the standard currently excludes white and brown from being shown, the breeders who breed to the standard do make every effort to not produce a white and brown. They know their lines, and the lines of the dogs theirs are being bred to, so they'll avoid any "co-mingling" of lines that would produce an "out of standard" color.

And since we're on the subject....and since there are grey Newfs as well...has anybody seen a grey and white with Landseer type markings?

Bristles is a grey and white don't know if you can tell in the picture. I do use the term Landseer as it is easier to explain to people who do not know the breed and think Newfs only come in Black. I just usually say the black and white newfs are called Landseer and Bristles is a little bit rarer in that she is grey and white. She was the only grey and white in the litter of blacks and landseers. Other litters born before and after did not produce the grey and white combination.

Does anyone know the rational for the AKC color standard? Is it health issues?

 

[chris nanney]

Met a brown and white at our newly opened dog park this weekend. She was a 7 month old bitch and a little on the small side. She looked like a giant Springer. She had a great personality and played with our 10 month old Bernese bitch.

It was unseasonably warm this weekend so even our Berner was drooling in the heat. The brown and white was drooling buckets and my son was slimed numerous times while he petted her.

A Pyr also arrived so there was plenty of fur and drool at the park.

 

[rompots]

Hi,
Also a bit late on this post. However as Rescue Chair last year for Florida I took in a 7 month old Brown and white newfie . Grace is pictured on my web page. under photo's. She is marked nicely and club members fell in love with her and adopted her. She according to her pedigree had some well know puppy mills in it. I became quite fond of Grace that is why her photo remains on my web site.

 

[pabusinesswoman]

I have found this thread extremely interesting.

Sarnewfie.. I have to agree.
I am not a breeder by any means but comming from a science background, it could be interesting.

If you have a solid genetic line.. say a brown line that meets the standard for everything except the color and did a cross with a strong landseer history that meets standard you should, hypothetically have a good offspring.

Since the genetic pool is diminished as you continue inbreeding, you would have to again keep breeding back to good quality lines that carried Newfie trates to produce quality Newf offspring. I would think this would produce more mismarks in the process until perfected. It would take an extremely well educated breeder who knows the lines to complete it successfully.

Diminishment of the gene pool is seen in some of the Amish communities. If they keep producing within there own 'sect, there has been increases in recessive diseases. So, just has stated in the previous posts, continuing to stray from the main genetic pool of the standard newf is going to stray from "what is a Newf" and gives more of the spaniel look seen in the BYB. It has potential for increasing the expression of recessive diseases in the breed.

Curiosity killing the cat- My wheels are turning... Is there a correlation? Is color connected affiated with major factors of the breed?

Do the different colors seem to have an inpact on the animal being any better at a certain task? IE. Has anyone noticed if say.. Landseers are better at swimming than say... a brown? Is there a color coordination affiliated with working characteristics? Hypothetically if so, would a certain color combination produce a Newf that excells in one venue better than another?

Healthwise- Do certain color lines seem to have do better when it comes to the major health issues of the breed? IE heart/ hips, etc? In this senario, black is standard so that would be the baseline. I know someone already mentioned about skin issues in browns and greys. There are tons of example of this in humans... one ethnic population being more suseptible to a disease than another.

 

[Windancer]

Grey gene can and does produce the same symptoms in other breeds..consider the doberman for one....

 

[chris nanney]

Met a brown and white at our newly opened dog park this weekend. She was a 7 month old bitch and a little on the small side. She looked like a giant Springer. She had a great personality and played with our 10 month old Bernese bitch.

It was unseasonably warm this weekend so even our Berner was drooling in the heat. The brown and white was drooling buckets and my son was slimed numerous times while he petted her.

Ran into the Brown and White puppy again this weekend at Petsmart. She and her owner had just left the dog park. She was drooling even more than I remembered. She is now 10 months old and starting to fill out more. Owner said she was around 100lbs the last time she was weighed so probably around 110. Her head had filled out more and is taking shape. Didn't look so much like a giant Springer anymore. Loving dog with a great personality. My young Berner was glad to see her and they greeted each other. I left with a slimed Berner.

 

[Sherry1999]

Love our Brown and White Landseer Newf!