Brown Landseer - Rare?

[RivNewf]

How unusual are brown landseers, if that's the correct term for a white and brown newf?

I know that it's considered a disqualifying fault for AKC Conformation shows and I've read some material (probably dated) suggesting such pups be destroyed! But I have seen a few out there with their avid adherents. I've seen one in particular that is a beautiful dog which came from a black father and a Landseer mother, each of which had a brown ancestor way back in their pedigree. The rest of the litter was black and Landseer. The appearance of the white/brown pup was a surprise.

Any ideas on just how rare this color combination is?

 

[sokkia]

no idea how rare but very interesting...do you have any pictures...I would love to see this!

 

[Ginny]

There are some BYBer's who breed for this. It's not all that uncommon, BUT it is not to the standard for Newf color. It can crop up when you have brown recessives in the line, as you said. IMHO, just another flavor of the month to get people to buy.

 

[sarnewfie]

Brown and white is the proper term, they are not landseer according to the standard, it only mentions white and black being landseer.
i despise those cashing in on rare or unusual as the selling point.
The color is in the breed, it should be accepted, maybe some day it will, but, it is not rare indeed.

 

[Sherrie]

I wonder

Are brown and white Newfs show legal in any country? I am just curious. I saw a picture of a black and tan Newfie in England that was very pretty but I have no idea if that is a recognized color there either.

 

[RivNewf]

I agree that "the color's in the breed and should be accepted" but I've always found the breed standards for conformation somewhat arbitrary. If browns are accepted and landseers are accepted as pure Newfies, then why not their cross (unless there's a health concern)? But, if they aren't rare at all why don't we see more of them? Does that suggest they are being put down?

 

[nowhavethreebears]

No, I think it suggests that reputable breeders do all they can to prevent these dogs from entering the gene pool. They are careful not to do any breedings that may produce this color combo. It is easy to avoid the brown genes and the landseer gene if you try.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with browns--I love brown newfies. There are great breeders who breed for brown and produce wonderful newfies. But it is easy to avoid if that is not what you are desiring to breed.
Breeders who breed these brown/whites are not interested in improving the breed. They are doing it because it is a novelty that will sell pups, just like the breeders who are now breeding the "blue" frenchies.

 

[RivNewf]

Excuse my elementary understanding of genetics (that's why I'm here after all), but how far back in the pedigree would one have to go to eliminate or reasonably reduce the possibility of the brown gene appearing in a given litter? 5 generations with no brown offspring? 10? How long can a recessive trait remain viable yet not be expressed? I guess brown can now be tested for which maybe makes this question moot.

 

[BLCOLE]

There are some BYBer's who breed for this. It's not all that uncommon, BUT it is not to the standard for Newf color. It can crop up when you have brown recessives in the line, as you said. IMHO, just another flavor of the month to get people to buy.

You are MUCH more tactful than I am, Ginny. Good answer to the person's question.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

A reputable breeder will research their lines of the dog they are breeding to and will already know their lines. If they know their lines have recessive genes for color, they will be careful to avoid other lines that have the same as to avoid those colors that are not acceptable and recognized by the AKC. There are lots of trendy colors and mixes out there now, getting high prices from unsuspecting buyers that don't know they are being taken.

 

[lenovo]

There bybers as far as I am concerned. Just in it for the cash and promoting rare, is disgusting to say the least. It is similar to rare albino dobermans which is another atrocity to the breed, and also brings on a multitude of health issues.

 

[ardeagold]

Someone on this site has a brown and white Newf....plus a Landseer Newf. I think they're siblings?

I'm with SAR on this one. But since the standard currently excludes white and brown from being shown, the breeders who breed to the standard do make every effort to not produce a white and brown. They know their lines, and the lines of the dogs theirs are being bred to, so they'll avoid any "co-mingling" of lines that would produce an "out of standard" color.

And since we're on the subject....and since there are grey Newfs as well...has anybody seen a grey and white with Landseer type markings?

 

[Abbey]

I think NinaA has a grey and white w/Landseer markings.

 

[jane]

I've only seen one...A woman who live's near me walks him in the preserve where I go w/the dog's. He is beautiful!!!

 

[newfvo]

There are DNA tests to determine if your Newf carries either the brown or grey gene. The test for the black & white gene is in the process of being developed but not yet available.

I have a black & white girl who's father (a black & white) has produced brown offspring. My girl could then possibly carry the brown gene and could in thereory produce brown & whites if bred to a male with a specific gene combination. I did the DNA test and she she does not carry either the brown or grey gene but I wanted to know what she could possibly produce prior to deciding on a mate.

 

[RivNewf]

I'm with SAR on this one. But since the standard currently excludes white and brown from being shown, the breeders who breed to the standard do make every effort to not produce a white and brown. They know their lines, and the lines of the dogs theirs are being bred to, so they'll avoid any "co-mingling" of lines that would produce an "out of standard" color.

But again, putting aside the issue of genetic testing for the moment, how far back in the line do you have to go to be reasonably sure you're excluding brown genes? And don't you need to know not only the direct ancestors of the dogs being considered but the siblings of those ancestors as well? For example, the brown/white dog mentioned when starting this thread came from a litter with black and Landseer siblings. Someone looking at the pedigrees of those dogs would not know of the possibility of recessive brown gene, correct?

 

[Sun Valley]

Recessive genes can stay hidden for many generations. Black is dominate, the other colors are recessive.

I hate seeing the BYB and mills breeding Landseers to browns, or grays with brown and Landseers.

Breeders should know their pedigree's, know what color they can expect, and not intentionally be breeding for those "rare" colors that seem to be very appealing to the uninformed buyers.

Lou Ann

 

[ardeagold]

But again, putting aside the issue of genetic testing for the moment, how far back in the line do you have to go to be reasonably sure you're excluding brown genes? And don't you need to know not only the direct ancestors of the dogs being considered but the siblings of those ancestors as well? For example, the brown/white dog mentioned when starting this thread came from a litter with black and Landseer siblings. Someone looking at the pedigrees of those dogs would not know of the possibility of recessive brown gene, correct?

The average person would not know which dogs have which recessive genes by looking at a pedigree.

The long-time breeders DO know. Molly's breeder amazes me. She can tell me the name of every dog in her line, spreading horizontally and vertically for about 10 generations. In our last discussion she was talking about one of the dogs who is grey-recessive. She knows what colors they've produced over the years.

In the past, before DNA testing, it was quite a record keeping adventure to track every dog and their offspring.......but the reputable breeders did, and still do, it. They know what kind of puppies (color, health, longevity, conformation, etc) each dog in that line throws. But it took years of tracking to determine the traits of a line....good and bad (depending on the circumstances).

DNA makes things so much easier. And since it's available, I'm sure more breeders are using it to verify what they already suspect or know.

 

[mynewfiemychevelle]

Brown and white is the proper term, they are not landseer according to the standard, it only mentions white and black being landseer.
i despise those cashing in on rare or unusual as the selling point.
The color is in the breed, it should be accepted, maybe some day it will, but, it is not rare indeed.

:allg069: It stinks something awful that people are cashing in on it, but in my humble and possibly ignorant opinion I would love to see Newfs of different colors accepted and in competition.
So what colors are out there?
Black
Landseer
Brown
Grey?
Brown and White

What else, and can anyone post pictures of the lesser know colors?

 

[ardeagold]

Go to the site linked below. It belongs to Xavier, a member here. You'll see a link on the left for Newfs of All Colors:

http://dogevents.net/

Edited to add:

Darn....the link for the Newfs doesn't work!!!

I emailed her to see if there's any way those pics are still viewable, and gave her the link to this thread. Hopefully she still has the pics on the net somewhere!