Are all breeders on nca reputable???
- Thread starter laceyl85
- Start date
Sound Bay Newfs
Active member
You should check out all breeders and not just assume they are all the same. But the NCA list is the best list for the most reputable breeders. The 2010-2011 NCA Breeder's List is being compiled now and should be published soon.
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The Breeders List the NCA publishes says "Persons on this list have agreed to abide by the newfoundland Club of america Ethics guilde." so you have a good chance of
finding a ethical breeder but that doesn't mean everyone on the list is honorable or ethical it just means noone has filed a complaint that is unresolved and it doesn't mean that there aren't honorable breeders who aren't on the list since you have to be a member for 5 years and have bred two litters among other things. Best practice is to research and interview. A new breeder is probably working with another breeder or breeders who are on the list so you can ask for a reference also.
finding a ethical breeder but that doesn't mean everyone on the list is honorable or ethical it just means noone has filed a complaint that is unresolved and it doesn't mean that there aren't honorable breeders who aren't on the list since you have to be a member for 5 years and have bred two litters among other things. Best practice is to research and interview. A new breeder is probably working with another breeder or breeders who are on the list so you can ask for a reference also.
lilly06
New member
Regardless of them being on the list you should still do your homework with the breed and the breeder. Whend we were looking for a breeder for our first Newfoundland, I initially had found a breeder on the NCA list and ended up forfiting our deposit because I did not feel that it would be a good fit. There were several red flags, in addition, I did not feel that the breeder would not be there for guidance in raising a giant breed.
The breeder I ended up choosing has been fantastic. I can pick up the phone at anytime and we have created quite the friendship over the last 4 years.
BTW-Red flag no 1. "non-refundable deposit"
Sometimes you have to go with your gut instinct. I would also encourage you to check out your local Newf club..
The breeder I ended up choosing has been fantastic. I can pick up the phone at anytime and we have created quite the friendship over the last 4 years.
BTW-Red flag no 1. "non-refundable deposit"
Sometimes you have to go with your gut instinct. I would also encourage you to check out your local Newf club..
Leonard and his bud Snuffles
Active member
I know there is a breeder listed that I would never contact. Though I have had no personal experiences, I do know of people who have had some genetic issues with a line.
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YorkvilleNewfie
New member
During my search for Mila, I learned that not all of the breeders on the NCA Breeders List are of unquestionable character...though the vast majority of them are the very best of the best. Just my opinion...
NewfDad
Member
Personally I consider the list pretty much marketing. There are breeders on the list in the past that are abysmal (I qualify that as I haven't looked for a breeder in a quite a while, my two are rescues and I can recommend a good club rescue). One of my major issues with NCA IS the breeders list. However it is a starting point. I would do the same level of reference checking for a breeder on the list as I would with somebody I met on the street. Note the same thing goes for most club breeder lists as well. Bad experiences with both.
Art
Art
Sound Bay Newfs
Active member
So what would you recommend for puppy buyers to find a reputable breeder? If there was no NCA breeder's list, should people just go through endless internet sites? Did you ever file a grievance with the NCA with the breeders you had a problem with? I am sorry you had a bad experience, but there is no perfect system. That is why it is encouraged to screen any breeder carefully, regardless of where you got their name from.
Also keep in mind that some puppy buyers don't tell the breeder enough about themselves and their expectations of the new pup, so the breeder can find the right pup for them. Then some buyers do not follow the breeders recommendations for raising the pup. I see this many times where a puppy buyer feeds the pup what they want, lets the pup get overweight, lets the pup overexercise, spay/neuter too early, over vaccinate, etc. etc. Then the breeder gets blamed when something goes wrong. Contract or not, people tend to do what they want with their pup and what their veterinarians recommend. (Not directed at you, Art, but a general statement)
There is a new NCA breeders list published every year. This year the requirements have been tightened up and many new applicant loopholes closed to improve the integrity of the list. The new list should be published in June.
Leonard and his bud Snuffles
Active member
Well I am not going to argue the point. I just know what breeding happened I know by second hand knowledge should have never happened and the arrogance of the 2 breeders involved (same dog line). If the NCA and local area clubs is about betterment of the breed, then something is wrong when these people run the club.
Sun Valley
New member
Very well said Lynn! Also, NCA members and people on the breeders list have a code of ethics to abide by or a grievance can be filed. The same can't be said for all of the indiscriminate breeders/breedings on the internet.
Lou Ann
Lou Ann
Sound Bay Newfs
Active member
And you don't think this goes on with breeders NOT on the NCA list? The breeders on this list are subject to more public scrutiny, but that does not make the whole list bad. Credit should also be given to those breeders on the list that are responsibly breeding.
Would you please indicate which requirements have been tightened up and what new applicant loopholes were closed to improve the integrity of the list.
Also, does this now mean that the NCA is making it mandatory for its breeders (either on the NCA Breeders List or not) to have all the necessary health tests, cardio, hips, elbos, etc, regardless of the results, posted on a database like OFA? In the past I have been so confused when researching breeders for a puppy and finding that so much information on OFA is missing from many different lines.
Leonard and his bud Snuffles
Active member
I never said that!!! All I did was answer the original question of why I have to wonder by a area example without being specific since what I know is second hand knowledge on a breeder that is on the NCA list. It would nice to believe it is the only rotten apple in the bunch. But with all the politics etc, I bet that one breeder is not the only bad apple.
NewfDad
Member
Soundbay
Couple of things.
As I said the list is a place to start just as a convenience but in all honesty being on the list means nothing to me, if we do a pup from a breeder in future I would do every single check on a breeder on the list I would do to a breeder not on the list.
In the end I think that there should be a list but the list should be taken as a convenience and as a marketing tool and buyers should do the same due diligence in all cases.
Couple of things.
Agreed, no system is perfect no argument there, not taking your post personally. We did file a grievance with the local club, went no where. Later found out that multiple breeders on club and NCA lists worked together to breed a bitch that was sold with a do not breed agreement. Kimber went lame at 6 months and eventually died due to complications of the medications to deal with her dysplasia. Dysplasia that was unfixable due to how bad the rest of her joints were. We did complain and did try and get the list requirements changed, went nowhere.
As I said the list is a place to start just as a convenience but in all honesty being on the list means nothing to me, if we do a pup from a breeder in future I would do every single check on a breeder on the list I would do to a breeder not on the list.
Agreed it doesn't make the whole list bad but it demonstrates the limitations of the list.
In the end I think that there should be a list but the list should be taken as a convenience and as a marketing tool and buyers should do the same due diligence in all cases.
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cedarvalleynewfoundlands
New member
I know this issue has been argued over and over on this list, and everyone has their own opinions. I have talked to NCA breeders who were wonderful, friendly, informative and extremely helpful. I have talked to others who were anything but. I have also talked to non-NCA breeders and found the same thing. One thing that has always bothered me about this discussion is the idea that the NCA Breeders Code of Ethics has something in it that is over and above what ANY responsile breeder should do, and IMO it doesnt.
Below I have copied the breeders code of ethics from the NCA Nwebsite, and what disturbs me most is it says nothing about any health testing on any dog being bred, which I can find little excuse for. The NCA breeders are supposed to be the best of the best, so why no mention of testing, conformation, anything in the code of ethics? It states that the breeders should be aware if the standard, but not any mention about breeding only dogs that conform to it. I guess what concerns me most, is that when one actually reads the code if ethics, there's not much of anything there to protect or help educate a potential Newfie puppy purchaser. IMO the main thing it guarantees is that an owner has recourse if they dont receive AKC reg papers. I may be missing something, and if I am, I certain ly apologize, but I truly dont see that much in the Code to protect a puppy buyer.
ETHICS GUIDE
Love and respect for the Newfoundland is inherent in membership in the Newfoundland Club of America. Therefore all members agree to foster the goals set forth in the Code of Ethics.
I. Responsibilities of Members
A. To provide for all dogs in their keeping
1. Physical Requirements of
a. Appropriate food, water, and shelter.
b. Protection from bodily harm.
c. Proper health care, including sanitation, immunization, and veterinary attention as needed.
2. Emotional requirements of
a. Attention and affection.
b. Appropriate training as needed.
B. To abide by AKC rules applicable to activities in which they engage.
C. To refuse to sell Newfoundland dogs to any pet shop, or any wholesale dealer in dogs, or knowingly to sell or aid or abet the sale of any Newfoundland to a person or agent who will sell the animal through a pet shop.
II. Responsibilities of Breeders
A. To be familiar with the Standard and to be aware that the purpose of breeding is to maintain or improve the quality of the Newfoundland in accordance with the Standard.
B. To be familiar with the AKC rules applicable to litter registration and individual registration.
C. To use for breeding only bitches in good health.
D. To represent accurately the health history and breeding records of the bitch when negotiating for stud service.
E. To negotiate all terms of a breeding agreement prior to a breeding. A written contract is recommended.
F. To produce puppies only when he/she has the time, facilities, and resources to provide attention to proper physical and emotional development.
III. Responsibilities of the Stud Dog Owner
A. To be familiar with the Standard and to be aware that the purpose of breeding is to maintain or improve the quality of the Newfoundland in accordance with the Standard.
B. To be familiar with the AKC rules applicable to litter registration.
C. To accept for servicing only bitches who appear to be in good health.
D. To represent accurately the health history and breeding records of the dog.
E. To negotiate all terms of a breeding agreement prior to a breeding. A written contract is recommended.
F. To complete the chain of registration by signing and returning the stud service certification promptly on satisfaction of the terms of the contract.
IV. Responsibilities of Sellers
A. To ascertain that the prospective buyer is aware of the needs of a Newfoundland and has the knowledge and facilities to care properly for a growing or grown dog.
B. To transfer registration papers to the buyer at the time of sale or to withhold papers only in accordance with AKC rules applying to individual registration, or by written agreement with the buyer.
C. To advise a buyer, or prospective buyer, of any probable delay or difficulty in registration.
D. To provide the buyer with a written Bill of Sale to include a description of the dog, the whelping date, the name of sire and dam, and the litter or individual registration number if available.
E. To advise the buyer of any known health defects.
F. To advise the buyer in writing of any or all health guarantees and compensations offered by the seller.
V. Advertising
It should be borne in mind that advertising may be read by persons having little or no knowledge of dogs. Each member is responsible to see that all advertising in his/her name does not promote his/her Newfoundlands through misleading or exaggerated statements or distortion of fact, or through stated or implied deprecation of the Newfoundlands of others.
VI. Contracts
Written contracts are strongly recommended for all transactions such as sales, co-ownerships, breeding rights agreements, compensation for future puppies, leasing a bitch and stud services.
VII. Discipline
The following are prima facie grounds for disciplinary action.
A. Neglect or abuse of any Newfoundland in the care of a member documented by the affidavits of three witnesses or by investigation of an authorized humane organization.
B. Suspension of privileges by the AKC for violation of its rules.
C. Advertising found to be in violation of the Code of Ethics.
D. Knowingly to sell, or to aid and abet the sale of a Newfoundland to or through a pet shop or its agents.
E. Refusal to comply with the terms of a written contract involving a Newfoundland without showing just cause.
F. Refusal to complete the chain of AKC registration without showing just cause.
G. Refusal to transfer registration papers to a buyer without showing just cause.
H. Refusal to honor guarantees and agreements made in writing without showing just cause.
VIII. Enforcement
Enforcement of the disciplinary section of the Code of Ethics will be handled in accordance with the disciplinary procedures outlined in Article VI of the By-Laws. In the case of any business transaction involving Newfoundlands, the NCA will refuse to entertain any grievance brought against a member unless a written contract or other document signed by both parties is submitted with the grievance.
Below I have copied the breeders code of ethics from the NCA Nwebsite, and what disturbs me most is it says nothing about any health testing on any dog being bred, which I can find little excuse for. The NCA breeders are supposed to be the best of the best, so why no mention of testing, conformation, anything in the code of ethics? It states that the breeders should be aware if the standard, but not any mention about breeding only dogs that conform to it. I guess what concerns me most, is that when one actually reads the code if ethics, there's not much of anything there to protect or help educate a potential Newfie puppy purchaser. IMO the main thing it guarantees is that an owner has recourse if they dont receive AKC reg papers. I may be missing something, and if I am, I certain ly apologize, but I truly dont see that much in the Code to protect a puppy buyer.
ETHICS GUIDE
Love and respect for the Newfoundland is inherent in membership in the Newfoundland Club of America. Therefore all members agree to foster the goals set forth in the Code of Ethics.
I. Responsibilities of Members
A. To provide for all dogs in their keeping
1. Physical Requirements of
a. Appropriate food, water, and shelter.
b. Protection from bodily harm.
c. Proper health care, including sanitation, immunization, and veterinary attention as needed.
2. Emotional requirements of
a. Attention and affection.
b. Appropriate training as needed.
B. To abide by AKC rules applicable to activities in which they engage.
C. To refuse to sell Newfoundland dogs to any pet shop, or any wholesale dealer in dogs, or knowingly to sell or aid or abet the sale of any Newfoundland to a person or agent who will sell the animal through a pet shop.
II. Responsibilities of Breeders
A. To be familiar with the Standard and to be aware that the purpose of breeding is to maintain or improve the quality of the Newfoundland in accordance with the Standard.
B. To be familiar with the AKC rules applicable to litter registration and individual registration.
C. To use for breeding only bitches in good health.
D. To represent accurately the health history and breeding records of the bitch when negotiating for stud service.
E. To negotiate all terms of a breeding agreement prior to a breeding. A written contract is recommended.
F. To produce puppies only when he/she has the time, facilities, and resources to provide attention to proper physical and emotional development.
III. Responsibilities of the Stud Dog Owner
A. To be familiar with the Standard and to be aware that the purpose of breeding is to maintain or improve the quality of the Newfoundland in accordance with the Standard.
B. To be familiar with the AKC rules applicable to litter registration.
C. To accept for servicing only bitches who appear to be in good health.
D. To represent accurately the health history and breeding records of the dog.
E. To negotiate all terms of a breeding agreement prior to a breeding. A written contract is recommended.
F. To complete the chain of registration by signing and returning the stud service certification promptly on satisfaction of the terms of the contract.
IV. Responsibilities of Sellers
A. To ascertain that the prospective buyer is aware of the needs of a Newfoundland and has the knowledge and facilities to care properly for a growing or grown dog.
B. To transfer registration papers to the buyer at the time of sale or to withhold papers only in accordance with AKC rules applying to individual registration, or by written agreement with the buyer.
C. To advise a buyer, or prospective buyer, of any probable delay or difficulty in registration.
D. To provide the buyer with a written Bill of Sale to include a description of the dog, the whelping date, the name of sire and dam, and the litter or individual registration number if available.
E. To advise the buyer of any known health defects.
F. To advise the buyer in writing of any or all health guarantees and compensations offered by the seller.
V. Advertising
It should be borne in mind that advertising may be read by persons having little or no knowledge of dogs. Each member is responsible to see that all advertising in his/her name does not promote his/her Newfoundlands through misleading or exaggerated statements or distortion of fact, or through stated or implied deprecation of the Newfoundlands of others.
VI. Contracts
Written contracts are strongly recommended for all transactions such as sales, co-ownerships, breeding rights agreements, compensation for future puppies, leasing a bitch and stud services.
VII. Discipline
The following are prima facie grounds for disciplinary action.
A. Neglect or abuse of any Newfoundland in the care of a member documented by the affidavits of three witnesses or by investigation of an authorized humane organization.
B. Suspension of privileges by the AKC for violation of its rules.
C. Advertising found to be in violation of the Code of Ethics.
D. Knowingly to sell, or to aid and abet the sale of a Newfoundland to or through a pet shop or its agents.
E. Refusal to comply with the terms of a written contract involving a Newfoundland without showing just cause.
F. Refusal to complete the chain of AKC registration without showing just cause.
G. Refusal to transfer registration papers to a buyer without showing just cause.
H. Refusal to honor guarantees and agreements made in writing without showing just cause.
VIII. Enforcement
Enforcement of the disciplinary section of the Code of Ethics will be handled in accordance with the disciplinary procedures outlined in Article VI of the By-Laws. In the case of any business transaction involving Newfoundlands, the NCA will refuse to entertain any grievance brought against a member unless a written contract or other document signed by both parties is submitted with the grievance.
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Sound Bay Newfs
Active member
The applicant has to have bred an AKC or CKC Champion Newfoundland, and must have bred 2 litters of Newfoundlands, and now needs one sponsor from the list.
As far as OFA clearances go, there is no way to enforce putting all the information on the site. So one does have to ask the questions of the breeder they are interested in and ask to see documentation.
cedarvalleynewfoundlands
New member
I guess this is one thing I have a problem with. What it says to me is that in order to be on NCA Breeders list, a breeder has to have bred a Champion (in other words....a pretty dog), but they dont have to make sure that their dogs have their health testing. I'm not even saying that the dogs have to have passed their health testing, but I do think it should be required that it was done. I definitely dont think that passing health clearances should be the sole requirement to be on the NCA list, but it seems to me that if anything is a requirement to be on the list, it should concern health and not beauty.
As far as health requirements go, there are many breed clubs that specify that to be on their breeders list, you must do health clearances. In fact, there are some that even state all dogs used for breeding must have passed their clearances, not just that they have been done (which incidentally, I dont necessarily agree with)
Just to clear up any confusion.....I think that the NCA breeders list definitely contains the best of the best within it....my main concern is that it definitely isnt true of all breeders on it, and that it could do so much more by concentrating on health right along with beauty....after all, the NCA is the parent club for the breed we all love.
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Sun Valley
New member
You must also have been an NCA member for 5 years to be on the breeder's list.
Yes, this same argument has been rehashed many times before on NN. I guess what bothers me is that pet people, or anyone buying a puppy acts like a breeder intentionally sets out to sell a puppy that will end with a problem. That is just not so...IMO, this breed is unhealthy and has many health issues. When you are dealing with genetics any and all problems can and do happen. It's a fact OFA dogs produce dysplastic offspring and a dog with out any clearances can produce OFA offspring.
I feel it is up to the buyer to educate himself and ASK questions and look for proof when in doubt when they looking for a puppy.
Health problems can be found in ALL bloodlines.
I still would rather buy from an NCA member then from someone who has NO club affiliations, doesn't show, does not know what the pedigrees of the dogs they are breeding or what's behind that pedigree and just produces puppies to sell.
Lou Ann
Yes, this same argument has been rehashed many times before on NN. I guess what bothers me is that pet people, or anyone buying a puppy acts like a breeder intentionally sets out to sell a puppy that will end with a problem. That is just not so...IMO, this breed is unhealthy and has many health issues. When you are dealing with genetics any and all problems can and do happen. It's a fact OFA dogs produce dysplastic offspring and a dog with out any clearances can produce OFA offspring.
I feel it is up to the buyer to educate himself and ASK questions and look for proof when in doubt when they looking for a puppy.
Health problems can be found in ALL bloodlines.
I still would rather buy from an NCA member then from someone who has NO club affiliations, doesn't show, does not know what the pedigrees of the dogs they are breeding or what's behind that pedigree and just produces puppies to sell.
Lou Ann