Are all breeders on nca reputable???

[cedarvalleynewfoundlands]

Hip cleared dogs can definitely produce dysplastic offspring -unfortunately...I know this first hand
I think puppy purchasers need to realize that health clearances reduce the risk of problems, but health issues cannot be entirely eliminated by health testing parents (with the exception of cystinuria)
Whenever I am talking to potential puppy parents, I always say that as a breed, Newfs are riddled with health issues....Unfortunate but true.

 

[Sun Valley]

Your absolutely right Mary! I tell potential puppy buyers that I can do every health test under the sun, but that still doesn't guarantee their puppy won't end up having a problem.

The only thing we can guarantee is cystinuria and even with that, I still follow the NCA's policy that after 2 generations of cleared by parentage, I will check the next generation.

A guarantee is only good if the breeder will honor it and I have read some doozy guarantee's on people's web sites that would make me run in the opposite direction as fast I can.

Lou Ann

 

[Leonard and his bud Snuffles]

I guess this is one thing I have a problem with. What it says to me is that in order to be on NCA Breeders list, a breeder has to have bred a Champion (in other words....a pretty dog), but they dont have to make sure that their dogs have their health testing.

Well said!!! As as much as I have heard from people who have shown their own dogs (newfs and other breeds), the judges and their politics tend to favor the paid professional handler and the dog may not even be that pretty. I have to wonder about the whole system.

 

[cedarvalleynewfoundlands]

.......A guarantee is only good if the breeder will honor it and I have read some doozy guarantee's on people's web sites that would make me run in the opposite direction as fast I can.
Lou Ann

One of the people I routinely give out as a reference is someone who had a problem with one of my puppies. People are surprised about this, but I always tell them they dont need to know how I respond if things are going well, they absolutely need to know how I respond if things dont work out as we had hoped.
I wholeheartedly believe people may be upset and disappointed if things dont work out with their puppy...but they generally arent angry and vindictive...they get THAT way because of how their breeder treats them once a problem comes up.
I always go back to the "golden oldie"....treat others as you would like to be treated.
I cant make their puppy healthy, but I CAN be there for advice, help them with research and support

 

[blstarke]

Your absolutely right Mary! I tell potential puppy buyers that I can do every health test under the sun, but that still doesn't guarantee their puppy won't end up having a problem.

The only thing we can guarantee is cystinuria and even with that, I still follow the NCA's policy that after 2 generations of cleared by parentage, I will check the next generation.

A guarantee is only good if the breeder will honor it and I have read some doozy guarantee's on people's web sites that would make me run in the opposite direction as fast I can.

Lou Ann

So, So, true, Lou Ann

 

[BluwaterNewfs]

It seems to have become a favorite past time to bash the breeder. If a breeder belongs to the breeder's list they no good and if they don't belong to the breeder's list they are no good. Are there good breeders that are not NCA members and/or not on the breeders list -Sure! Are there some not so good breeders on the breeders list -Sure!

At least on those on the breeder list do have to commit to some level of standard, even if it is not enough as some would like to see.

As Lou Ann said

I tell potential puppy buyers that I can do every health test under the sun, but that still doesn't guarantee their puppy won't end up having a problem.

The only thing we can guarantee is cystinuria and even with that, I still follow the NCA's policy that after 2 generations of cleared by parentage, I will check the next generation.

I tell potential puppy buyers the same thing and why that is! I can't begin to tell how many time I get a call about a puppy and I start explaining about health clearances and such and people haven't got clue what I am talking about nor do they seem to care. They just want a healthy puppy and think if it has AKC papers it must be a good puppy,

 

[cedarvalleynewfoundlands]

...........I tell potential puppy buyers the same thing and why that is! I can't begin to tell how many time I get a call about a puppy and I start explaining about health clearances and such and people haven't got clue what I am talking about nor do they seem to care. They just want a healthy puppy and think if it has AKC papers it must be a good puppy,

I find exactly the same thing. I also find that they seem to have no idea that a pedigree is just a family tree. They seem to have the idea that AKC papers and a pedigree equals a great, healthy dog.

 

[Sun Valley]

Mary...do you refund money when a puppy problem arises or only a replacement?

Lou Ann

 

[cedarvalleynewfoundlands]

Mary...do you refund money when a puppy problem arises or only a replacement?

Lou Ann

My contract says 50% cash refund or a replacement puppy, whichever they choose. Either way, I never make them return their pup to me. About 1 year ago we had an 18 month old puppy turn up with severe hips and grade 3 elbows all the way around, and I refunded 100% of their money even though they were outside of the contract period. They had started noticing very slight intermittant problems at 8 months, and it steadily worsened and was finally diagnosed at 18 months. My feeling was that I would never have expected anything like that, and I truly dont think that severe of a problem can be caused by anything other than some sort of a developmental problem in utero.

 

[Peter Maniate]

We live in an imperfect world and every institution and every thing they do can be criticized, constructively or otherwise. The NCA Breeders List may not be perfect but it is better than whatever list is in second place. The club is always striving to improve it and credit should be given where credit is due.

I am and have been a proud member of the NCA since 1981. My main reason for being a member is to be eligible to be on their Breeders List. While I belong to other lists, this is the only one where I have to qualify to get on and it provides my puppy adopters free arbitration to support my guarantee. The NDCC provides something similar but breeders who get complaints often quit the club rather than face the possible discipline; however this does not seem to be the case with the NCA, possibly because of the more stringent hurdles to get aboard, it is not something to give up easily.

The NCA absolutely fascinates me since despite all the politics and infighting, it has accomplished more than any other club that I have ever belonged to. The list of accomplishments is long and includes the Breeders List, the recommended health clearances, the national rescue dog network, the support for health research and the working dog tests, in particular the three levels of water rescue dog testing. My absolute favourite aspect of the NCA is the award for oldest living Newfoundland since this is my ultimate passion.

 

[Sun Valley]

Mary, I'm glad to hear that.

And Peter, well said and your are absolutely right about the NCA!

Lou Ann

 

[NewfDad]

Other random thoughts on the list.

I think the requirements for the list have addressed fundamental business issues. However, the lack of screening requirements is the first and foremost thing that makes me to use the term marketing to the list. There are two things that NCA could do to make me take the list seriously.

First, as the NCA has tied the list to championship, make it obligatory that champions be screened for SAS, Hips, Cystinuria, and Elbows. I do not think any dog that can't get average or above or clear should have the title champion.

Second, require that all breeding pairs have the same screening as champions.

I agree with the breeders that screening does not guarantee an absolutely healthy dog, I totally get it, screening is actually pretty useless at the dog level, at the breed level it is essential. Look at the page on the "German" GSD club approach to dysplasia at the link below, particularly the very last paragraph. Think how much, pain and suffering would be saved by simply requiring the screenings. How much more would good breeders be rewarded and identified.

http://www.4germanshepherds.com/Dysplasia.htm

 

[cedarvalleynewfoundlands]

I agree with parts of this. I think as the parent club, the NCA breeders list should be at the forefront of setting an example of what responsible breeding is. I think the majority of breeders on that list ARE doing health certs, but I really cant think of a good reason why it isnt required. JMHO.
As far as the dog/bitch having to pass the health certs, I think that is where it gets murky. IMO, I think there is a place for a dog who scores a Boderline or Mild on hips, or a Grade 1 on elbows. I think the problems occur in that when doing so, the breeder must be willing to use that dog/bitch responsibly. For starters, it means the dog/bitch can have either less than optimal hips OR elbows....but not both. I have seen people use dogs with hips AND elbows that dont clear. It also means that the dog it is bred too should have ALL clearances. It also means that anyone interested in one of the puppies from such a breeding is AWARE of the results of the health cert. I also think those puppies must be followed and have prelims done BEFORE that dog/bitch is bred again. In addition, I think that the breeder absolutely must be willing to spay/neuter that dog/bitch if problems result in the offspring.
I often tell people who call with questions about the cost of health certs for breeding, that the cost isnt so much in the costs of the health certs themsleves......it lies in having to spay/neuter the dogs/bitches that you cant use in a breeding program. It also lies in having to spay/neuter a dog that isnt a good rep of the breed, regardless of the results of health certs.
Many a breeder chooses to use a dog/bitch they KNOW is producing problems, just because that dog/bitch brings in money from puppies.
I think with hips and elbows, there is a place to use a dog with Borderline, Mild, PennHip of 50th percentile, or Grade 1 elbows....I think there is NEVER a reason for using a dog that cant pass a heart clearance. JMHO

 

[blstarke]

I so agree with you. Mary and Lou Ann
Both of you know what I have been through

 

[Sun Valley]

Mary poses some excellent comments. It's easy for pet people and people who don't breed to to want breeder's to do it all and never produce a problem....I doubt that will ever happen in my life time until they can come up with a DNA test for all heritable problems.

I also personally would not want to belong to a club that dictates what and who I can breed and what health test I 'must' do. I don't know of any reputable breeder's who don't do testing and breed accordingly.

Right now I am more concerned about the lack of breed type we are seeing and having a dog with every clearance but the dog looks like a flat coated retriever isn't my idea of what should be bred.

Lou Ann

 

[NewfDad]

Just to clarify. The parents would only be required to be screened. Champions would be required to have a specific result from screening.

 

[ardeagold]

Just to clarify. The parents would only be required to be screened. Champions would be required to have a specific result from screening.

Just curious as to why you'd make a distinction, Art?

 

[NewfDad]

Just curious as to why you'd make a distinction, Art?

Two different objectives. For the Champion I think that being passing the checks with at least an average should be a minimum entry critera for championship. I can't see holding a dog up on a pedestal as a champion if the underlying structure won't pass a screening.

For breeding pairs the objective is transparency for the buyer. It gives the buyer more information about the breeding of the dog so they can make an informed decision. Hoping in the long run that informed buyers will move the market to a place where all dogs are screened and we can do for the Newfoundland Dog what the German "German" Shepherd Dog club has done for their breed.

I will never forget the pain that Kimber went through because of her breeding. The least I can do to honor her is to try and push for a healthier sounder breed.

 

[KatieB]

There can be pain regardless of the clearances of two dogs. My berners parents have all clearances and he's an orthopedic disaster and at 5 years has severe arthritis and barely gets off the dog bed. Every puppy in his litter was OFA'd (required by his breeeder) and he's the only one who didn't pass. So who am I to say his parents shouldn't be bred if he was the only one in the litter with problems. That's why I'm not a breeder. I can't decide how many issues are too many to end my line and start over.

While I'm not saying clearances shouldn't be done, I firmly believe they should, it just doesn't mean your puppy will be sound. Breeding is a crapshoot. You can try to put the odds in your favor by making sure you buy from a breeder who does clearances and can explain to your their breeding practices whether those clearances are good or bad. If they know the pedigree, the clearances of the dogs behind the pedigree and what the dam and sire have been producing that makes me far more confident than just looking at an evaluation of an OFA xray.

I don't think a dog should be thrown out just because it doesn't pass hips or elbows and I don't think a dog should be used just because it does pass hips and elbows. The g ene pool is already too limited that to further limit it by throwing out every dog who isn't perfect seriously hurts the breed.

At the end of the day you take a risk on a breed with a lot of health issues. You have to be comfortable that you purchased froma breeder who did everything possible to produce a healthy puppy, that also looks and acts like a newf, but also purchase insurance on that pup and realize that things can and do go wrong. It's a living being creature and nothing is guaranteed.

I don't think a dog should have to have clearances just to be a champion or be shown. A large number of dogs that are shown are never bred and the majority of dogs that are bred are never shown. Conformation is a sport and a hobby for many people and I know a great deal who neuter and spay once the championship is complete. Those who do breed tend to do the clearances whether the dog is a champion or not. I think in an ideal world every single puppy produced would be xrayed so you'd actually know what a dog was producing. In my mind that's more important. If an affected dog is producing clear litters then that's far more telling than just looking at his affected status. If a clear dog is producing affected litters than that dog should probably not be bred. So really looking at whole litter data is the only way to really understand what's being produced, but I find that's very very hard to come by in newfs. You'll see much more full litter data in Berners but that's because the breed has such horrific problems and such a short life span that's it's almost become mandatory.

 

[NewfDad]

According to the UK Provet site Hip Dysplasia occurs in 39% of Newfoundlands. According to the site link I posted about GSDs in Germany their incidence is 7%.

This difference is completely due to the strict efforts of the club around breeding and screening. Why can't we do this for Newfoundlands? Yes screening won't guarantee the health of one dog or help a dog with Dysplasia, but it will help the breed in the long run 7% is a heck of a lot better than 39% My goal is to be the 7%.