Will training help abused dog?

[kimewest]

My daughter just moved home with Kodi from an abusive relationship. Since she lived out of state I had no idea she and the dog were being abused. I'm glad they are here but Kodi has major issues.

He has growled at everyone but me (4 other adults) and attacks Mac, our 8 month old Newf. When he first came he was suspicious, never wagged his tail and didn't look right. At the vet he went after the tech when she tried to take his temp. If my daughter didn't have him on a leash she said he would not have stopped. She said his eyes glazed over and he actually scared her and she doesn't get scared of dogs. Her opinon is that he can never be trusted.

I have him sitting before he goes in or out and make him wait until I give an ok. When I want him to down or stay or any other command I do it with a very happy voice and LOTS of praise when he does. He's been here a month and wags his tail and plays with toys but we don't trust him. Yesterday without any provocation he got up and attacked Mac who was just hanging out. Kelly was sick and in my bedroom laying down and a friend came in to see her and Kodi tried to bite him. We have a one week old baby in the house and all of us feel he should never be in the room with her even if there is an adult present.

Kelly really wants to keep him as they have been through a lot together. When alone with just her and I he is a Newf, silly and playful. He has changed a lot since he got here (in a good way) but I don't trust him.

So, the big question is would serious training be able to make him safe? The vet tec, who is also a breeder, says no. Opinions?

Kelly wants to find a foster home for him until she gets her own place but I even think that could be risky.

 

[Liisa]

Personally, I think the vet tech may be biased as she is the one he went after.

That being said...I know others on here will give you advice of how they have dealt with this. In particular, Ronnie went through a very bad time with her rescue Annabelle and was able to work her through it. Hopefully, Ronnie will see this and give her input.....

What a terrible situation and I feel for you. And the poor newfy boy who probably has no idea that he's safe now.

 

[dannyra]

The first thing I would do is get blood work done just to rule out any health issues. Especially a full thyroid panel.

I definitely wouldn't have him in the same room as the baby.

How's he when your daughter isn't around? Just curious if he may relax and not be in protection mode when she's not around.

I'd meet a few trainers and get professional opinions.

The more training the more trust and bond. This dog has been abused and uprooted from everything it knows. It's going to take a lot of time and patience to pull him around.

 

[Pregreen]

Wow you have alot going on! Your older Newf Harley is attacking Mac and now Kodi is attacking Mac? Mix in an infant and you have one complicated situation. Here's my take on things, your older Newf is in pain and probably wants to be left alone. If he isn't on anything for his arthritis it would probably help to get him to the vet for a check up and some type of pain medicine. Kodi was uprooted to a strange place and has an existing pack to deal with along with his own issues. As far as the vet tech I too would take her word with a grain of salt, I don't know too many dogs who are thrilled with getting their temp taken. Other than warning growls has Kodi ever bitten anyone? I also agree with Dannyra, if your daughter was abused how would Kodi know if her visitor meant her harm? I am assuming that she was abused by a man and you stated that her visitor was a man. I would think this might be a protection thing. As far as dog to dog relationships go don't be to sure that Mac didn't instigate the attack by Kodi or the attack by Harley. I would think something had to happen in order for a 10 year old, weak in the hind end dog to want to get up and attack another dog. Relationships between dogs are complex and we miss alot of signals dogs send to each other. I don't know if it's at all possible for you to keep everyone apart and away from the baby until things get sorted out. Let Harley have his peace, continue working with Kodi and seek the help of a good behaviorist, keep Mac out of everyone's hair and hopefully with time and effort things will improve.

 

[kimewest]

Thank you for your input. Yes, he has been through a lot!! Kelly says that he would get between her ex and her when he was coming after her so Kodi is very protective of Kelly now. At first he was calmer when Kelly was gone and hypervigilent when she was home but now is about the same both ways. He does accept love and affection from us now and even comes over to me for attention so he is beginning to see that he is safe here.

He will have to move again soon to a foster environment so that everyone is safer and Kelly probably won't be able to go with him. Then he will move another time when she gets a place so more upheaval coming his way.

She has taken him to the vet but I don't think they've done any blood work but I will suggest it. He was very underweight when he came and had worms but he is filling out now.

Kelly feels so guilty and heartbroken over his life. They both need healing. It is worth a try to get some training so I will look for some trainers with her. Liisa it is encouraging to hear that Annabelle was able to be rehabilitated. I will look for her posts.

 

[Lori]

Wow, there is a lot going on. I think making him move to a foster environment will not help him, just my opinion. He needs to work through and see he and Kelly are safe now. Dogs like consistency and schedules and to uproot him again to a foster (if you could even find one) and then again back to Kelly would be very rough on him. It will take a lot of work and vigilance but it can be done. A good behavourist would be first on the list along with bloodwork.

 

[Newfobsessed]

I've fostered/trained a few dogs who were abused, and in abusive relationships. As wisely stated before, if it is not anything physical, the prognosis is good. Get a behaviourist/trainer he and your daughter are comfortable with, let him take his time, and you will see results. The upcoming upheavals won't help, but with good, solid professional help, he will get thru those too and be reunited with his beloved Mom once and for all - in a happy, safe environment. Please keep us posted.

 

[ardeagold]

Training classes are a very good thing. Speaking to a behaviorist helps a LOT. The important thing is to learn to read your dog and know what's coming so you can intercede before anything happens. Plus, getting him into some one on one with your daughter, helps to build the bond and trust again. They both need to learn to feel safe, with each other and with others. Training and proper socialization helps a great deal with this.

Also, just like I said in the other thread regarding Harley...Full Thyroid Panel sent out to MSU or Dr. Dodds.

I don't know about putting Kodi in a foster home if she intends to keep him. There are so many reasons I don't know where to start. However, I do feel that if she decides to give him up, it may be in his best interest to let him go for good, where he can get past his problems (with men especially, it sounds like), and begin to build his confidence and trust again.

Here are my suggestions:

Take Kodi and Harley to the Vet and get some pain meds for Harley, and a FULL Thyroid panel done on both. And if your Vet is giving blithe answers like "once a dog fights they always fight" or "he can never be trusted", it might be time to find a different Vet.

I'm surprised he didn't prescribe something for Harley instead of aspirin. Aspirin isn't the best answer for dogs, and it can be dangerous. All pain meds can be dangerous, health wise, but there are some that are more mild and have fewer problems associated with them. Especially if the dog is on them long term.

And before giving anything they need to check the liver enzymes. Rechecks are done intermittently to make sure the pain meds aren't negatively impacting the liver.

Call a behaviorist (try your local kennel club), and then have your daughter and Kodi start working on healing together. This will give them both something to do that's positive and safe, and the rewards are often great for human and dog alike.

You do have a lot on your plate, but with outside help and an understanding Vet, I think they can be worked through. But they WILL take work and effort.

Sending lots of good vibes that this can all be worked out for the best for everyone.

 

[newflizzie]

I've fostered/trained a few dogs who were abused, and in abusive relationships. As wisely stated before, if it is not anything physical, the prognosis is good. Get a behaviourist/trainer he and your daughter are comfortable with, let him take his time, and you will see results. The upcoming upheavals won't help, but with good, solid professional help, he will get thru those too and be reunited with his beloved Mom once and for all - in a happy, safe environment. Please keep us posted.

I'm more of this opinion. Granted my experience is with a different breed and through fostering rescues. I've dealt with 6 dogs who were abused - 2 ended up having to be euthanized - as a very last resort and on the advice of behaviorists. It still breaks my heart we couldn't help them. The other 4 sound more like your situation and the personal trainer and behaviorists I worked with were excellent and they made progress in baby steps. It took lots and lots of time and lots and lots of work but they ended up being good companions once again and they were placed in very experienced homes with no children. 2 steps forward and 3 steps back and a million years worth of patience. I guess bottom line of what I'm trying to say is to rule out health issues, then get very experienced help to evaluate and train and there is good chance of recovery. I'm so sorry this happened to them.

 

[kimewest]

Thank you all so much for caring about our situation and for your insight and suggestions.

I found a facility near Phoenix that wants all four dogs to come for an aggression evaluation with a behaviorist. It will be an hour and a half eval and that will be a good start in helping us handle these guy differently. Then they have an in-house 21-day program that Kodi can go into to retrain and socialize him and then 8 follow up lessons with us to ensure a good transition back into the home. The 3 weeks away could be tough for him but could be the turning point too. It could also give Kelly a break to work on her own healing. Of course, it's expensive but we are trying to save his life.

I will get Harley back into the vet for a different med and some blood work. I would very much like to give him a bit more time to be loved and have a good quality of life with us.

Thanks again, before I started this thread I was not optimistic but I really am now! I will keep you posted.

 

[ardeagold]

Before you send him anywhere, make sure you research the place and find out what kind of training methods they use.

Some of those places aren't the best......so ask ask ask. Ask your Vet, ask for references, and research on the internet. Google the place's name, and the trainer's names. Don't just look at one site ... hunt for input. Call the BBB.

If everything is good and on the up and up, then consider it. But be VERY careful of those boot camp programs.

 

[R Taft]

As per usual I would follow Donna's good advise, it always is..........

As to the abused dogs being righted again it can be done to some. Annabelle was hugely "damaged goods" when we took her on. People and dog aggressive. She attacked all dogs and quite a few people, except me. The Vet Behaviorist suggested "Put to Sleep". She is now the most wonderful and can be totally trusted . But Mike and I gave her a very stable environment and we had to commit for a full six month and we are still training two years on. Of which I spent almost a month one to one with her almost full time. Obedience training under good teaching is the best. But I was very lucky to have found a trainer, who was as committed as me and who rescues Rottweilers. He had incredible experience and taught me so much. I would never send a dog to anywhere I did not know. I believe in training with the dog, with a good trainer. And each problem has to be treated as an individual problem. But control and knowing dog behavior is of the most important. I was always totally aware of Annabelle and as Donna said, you need to know what is going to happen and prevent it and not wait till it happens. You need to give the dog a safe environment, where it can not get into trouble unsupervised I spent a lot of time walking and turning away from possible problems and doing training sessions. But we always gave her the support she needed and we were constant and reliable.
I think it can be done with the right help..........But that said, the right help cannot always be found. I am not sure as to wether I could have done Annabelle's re-training without Scott, our trainer and Mike's help. It was at times very difficult and sometimes I had to dig deep........Many tears were shed, I walked many miles with her on my own, crying and thinking I may have to put her to sleep. The end result is great for us, but not everyone will be able to have the same result and no-one should be condemned if they are unable to give the same or get the same result. Each and every dog is still a different character to start with. If the dog loves her, I would give him a chance.
I hope it all goes well. there is no greater joy than succeeding.

 

[Sue M.]

All great advise. One question though; Is he intact? If he is, I'd be scheduling a neuter for him as soon as possible. That would most likely make working with him for the issues a lot easier. Plus, if the temperment of this dog is like you say, your daughter definitely shouldn't breed him anyway.

I would also agree that being put in a foster home temporarily probably wouldn't be the best thing for him. The more he's tossed around from place to place, the more insecure this poor boy will get. He needs stability and persistant work on changing the bad behaviours. It really is a serious thing. A giant breed dog that is going after people is a time bomb waiting to go off. Without something being done, seeing a behaviourist and ruling out medical issues, it's only a matter of time before someone does get hurt and then the dog's fate will be sealed.

It sounds like you are trying to do just that so I really hope for the best outcome for this boy and all of you. Good Luck.

 

[victoria1140]

I've dealt with some severely abused dogs over the years through rehoming them. We've always kept them to a schedule in order to help them build bonds and trust.

I wouldn't reccomend a foster home as it will make any insecurities worse, try to keep everything as steady as possible. Professional help is always good.

With regular training and a stable home enviroment you should see some steady improvement.

 

[kimewest]

Well, I got bit. We have been playing musical dogs trying to keep them apart, moving them to be with us, into other rooms and outside without them coming into contact. Yesterday morning that didn't work. Mac was the instigator this time. I saw him start to puff up and as I went to move him to another room he turned and growled at Kodi and the fight was on. I was right in the middle of it and got a bad bite on my arm. So, a trip to the doc to have it cleaned out, a tetanus shot and antibiotics and I am sore and more frustrated than before.

Kelly is looking for the right person and has contacted a behaviorist and we either get no response or the trainer is not right for us. When Kodi is not around Mac he actually shows great promise. I can see that with some intense training he could be a really good dog. Day by day he is becoming a Newf, happy and silly although still having some resistance to submitting.

Kelly, because of her attachment coming out of abuse with Kodi does not want to neuter him or find a home that would work well with him. Because she is working she is not home much to deal with him so this has fallen on me and I have too much on my plate already. Nikki is caring for her almost 2 week old baby so isn't able to help and my husband is traveling. I also work from my home and have to figure out where to put everyone when a client comes by.

I'm whining, I'm sorry. I was up most of the night with the baby so my daughter could rest and then had a full day so I'm tired. Maybe tomorrow we will find someone to help.

 

[ardeagold]

Sorry about the bite. I'm sure you know that having a hand in the middle of a dog fight isn't a great idea. Same thing happened to Jacques and my son, years ago. I hope it'll heal quickly!!

You made a statement above that confuses me:

Kelly, because of her attachment coming out of abuse with Kodi does not want to neuter him or find a home that would work well with him.

I don't understand how neutering him has anything to do with her attachment to him. I do understand her wanting to keep him, but if she does, she really has to step up and take care of her dog when she gets home from work, and on her days off...and try to figure out a way to get this to work.

Can't she go to some training classes with him in the evenings??? Most people with dogs do work, yet they still have time for walking, training, classes, etc. I just think she needs to get involved with him, other than loving and cuddling/playing with him. He needs more than that...he needs training and structure and to know she's the boss. That all takes involvement, commitment and most of all...time.

 

[Charlie'sMom]

I am with ardeagold - I understand why Kelly wouldn't want to get rid of Kodi - but I cannot grasp why she wouldn't do the right thing (for all of the dogs and you) by neutering him. Him being intact, in an already explosive canine situation, where you have been hurt, is like a ticking time bomb and is really inappropriate. If she really cares about him, she will do everything she needs to do to keep him and the other animals and people safe, ie neutering him and putting time into training him.

 

[suse]

Please listen to ardeagold. She understands the breed so well and has many years of experience with more than one male. I am fostering an intact male right now with my altered male, and even we are having some issues, but ardeagold's advice has been gold. AftCharlie's Mom is also spot on.

Once I discovered my foster was not altered, the FIRST phone call I made was to make an appointment for him to be neutered. I have the dog's best interest at heart. It is not inhumane to alter this dog that is showing aggression. It is the testosterone that is adding to his problem. Altering him would be the humane thing to do, as it would help him calm down.

You have a serious situation here and your daughter is only asking for trouble if she doesn't deal with this. Dogs are dogs, not humans...they do not have human emotions and will not be upset or have hurt feelings if they get altered.

Good luck...we're pulling for you.

 

[KodysGrandma]

I too must join the please get him neutered group. Your daughter needs to understand she is putting all of you at risk, including him. Why does she not want to neuter him? That's usually a "man" thing, they take it personally. LOL

 

[padkins]

If you are the one that is caring for him and getting bitten in the process, I would think that you could make the executive decision and insist that he be neutered. It is your home that is getting disrupted, and I think that you have a big say in this whole situation! Good luck and I hope that everything works out soon for everyone. :grouphug: