Thank God for Texas' Sen Cornyn!

ardeagold

New member
Gitchee...but you never responded to Julie's question...nor did you indicate willingness to debate the particular details of the bill.

I, for one, completely understand your views, and don't necessarily disagree with everything you say. BUT, IMO, this country was founded on the beliefs that "majority rules". And right now, the majority of Americans are against this PARTICULAR bill. Not against Health Care Reform, as you think we are.

Something needs to be done, but it's very complex and cannot be done so quickly. Many more will suffer as a result of expediency for political purposes.

There's too much of a chance for error, and for those representatives who say they have no intention of reading the bill because it's too long and too complicated ... how can they fairly and honestly represent their constituents? They're signing "something"...but they don't know what. And they certainly don't know the impact it will have on ALL Americans.

That's just not right. Before anyone votes for or against this bill, they need to know what they're subjecting we, the American people, to.

Affordable health care for American citizens is something that's needed ... for all. But there are so many issues to consider, that a measured, considered approach with input and work by all is needed.

The majority of Americans, no matter what party they belong to, will support something fair, equitable, and GOOD for all citizens. This bill isn't it.

If you haven't read it, please do. It's grueling, complex, and I believe there are some things in it that even you'll oppose.
 

ina/puusty

New member
If we were a group of 100 people..not the whole country..of masses of humanity..we could all have a genuine shot at airing ALL the proposals, the suggested corrections..plus the new or severely-tweaked..creations..all of which are meant to improve the health care system. We have people being born every second..and people dying..every second. We have people so densely packed into towns/areas of towns..and flowing through the roads of this country..as to be uncountable. They are human life forms..as grains of sand..and thus..all who ask to just have a nice 'reading'..and then a nice honest' explanation of how each position..would play out..and then..how each 'portion'..would..INTERACT..with..all others..are not missing the point..you are ignoring..the point. No single person, no single group is going to be able to with absolute precision..BE able..to tell..exactly..how it will play out. Too many..moving parts. The only thing to do..is jump in..with the best information we all can. There is not one single person..of any political party..in this country..or any other country..who could call all the 'ramifications' now. It is going to be..a collective..'best guess'..and that is how the country has moved forward..in the past. We fohgt a civil war..because there were those who said one thing..and those who said another. Time in passing..has shown us..what truths..were..the healing truths..and thus Time..will show us again. One cannot have a clean, tidy consensus..with so many people. Some will never even vote because they could care less about anything not in their shot glass, or camper. Others will die from strokes as they find the world closeing in upon them..lost in mental foment. And..the most, the semi-attentive masses..will move toward..what..feels right, seems doable..if started as a seed..with genuine hope..for a cure..down the road, around the corner..and tended by those who really wish..for..healthy..change. ina n HB n Kesa
 

gitchegumee

New member
Gitchee...but you never responded to Julie's question...nor did you indicate willingness to debate the particular details of the bill.

I, for one, completely understand your views, and don't necessarily disagree with everything you say. BUT, IMO, this country was founded on the beliefs that "majority rules". And right now, the majority of Americans are against this PARTICULAR bill. Not against Health Care Reform, as you think we are.

Something needs to be done, but it's very complex and cannot be done so quickly. Many more will suffer as a result of expediency for political purposes.

There's too much of a chance for error, and for those representatives who say they have no intention of reading the bill because it's too long and too complicated ... how can they fairly and honestly represent their constituents? They're signing "something"...but they don't know what. And they certainly don't know the impact it will have on ALL Americans.

That's just not right. Before anyone votes for or against this bill, they need to know what they're subjecting we, the American people, to.

Affordable health care for American citizens is something that's needed ... for all. But there are so many issues to consider, that a is needed.

The majority of Americans, no matter what party they belong to, will support something fair, equitable, and GOOD for all citizens. This bill isn't it.

If you haven't read it, please do. It's grueling, complex, and I believe there are some things in it that even you'll oppose.
We have been proceeding on a "measured, considered approach with input and work by all" for years and we are no farther along. My opinion is that the Reps. are fundamentally against anything that will provide affordable healthcare for all citizens. For as long as I remember Reps. have always been against this.

Our country is a representative democracy. The majority does NOT rule. If the majority ruled we wouldn't have had GW in the White House. Don't get me started on that. I digress, sorry. We elect a representatives. We do not vote on every single bill that comes before Congress and current public opinions do not (or should not) dictate our policies. I do not trust polls. They can be skewed in so many ways.

We trust those representatives to be informed on what they are voting for and to vote in a way they feel is consistent with their beliefs. If we do not like how they voted we can choose not to vote for them in the next election. And we certainly have the right, if not duty, to express our thoughts to them on particular issues.

I have not read the bill. I trust my elected officials to do the job they were elected to do. FYI, most members of Congress do not read the bills. They have staff to do that. This is nothing new and really does not depend on the size of the bill. Reading an entire bill or the length of a particular bill seems to me to be the new "buzz word", so to speak. Deflecting attention away from the real issue.

Going back to what I said earlier, I believe there is a fundamental difference between most Reps and most Dems on this issue. And there is a lot of disinformation being spewed about how this bill is going to take away your rights, cost you more money, destroy business, etc. etc. (and don't get me started on what party has removed more personal freedoms).

If I had a direct vote on this bill I would vote for it. If, for no other reason, than to get things moving. Adjustments and tweaks are going to be needed no matter how "perfect" a bill someone comes up with.

Just my opinion and we all know about opinions. :)
 

NewfDad

Member
I think the health care issue has caused us to miss the real issue here. The issue is the recruiting of people to provide personal information in the form of email chains to the government based on political view. Combine this with advanced data technologies and you have a dangerous thing.
Art
 

ina/puusty

New member
I vote we pay for a NN 'highlighter'..so those who find a 'fear'..in every day news..can have their 'fear related comments'..posted in glittering neon red. It wouldn't help us..but it sure would allow them an extra-venting..and that..would be a public service..I'm thinkin'... ina n HB n Kesa
 

ardeagold

New member
This is true Art.

Our country is a representative democracy.
No. Our country is emphatically a republic...not a democracy. There is a very important difference...which you pointed out.

A republic is ruled by law ... a democracy is ruled by majority.

Reading an entire bill or the length of a particular bill seems to me to be the new "buzz word", so to speak. Deflecting attention away from the real issue.
That's what we PAY them to do. And if they'd read them, perhaps they'd know why the "majority" whom they represent to pass these things into law, are so strongly against them. Which would be the REAL issue.

If I had a direct vote on this bill I would vote for it. If, for no other reason, than to get things moving.
Yep, that's logical. Impact millions of Americans forever, because it sounds like it just might be what YOU want, even though you don't know what you're voting for..and the people you represent don't want it.

Unfortunately that's exactly what the Congress wants to do...and is why so many (yep, a majority) of the American people are furious.
 
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ina/puusty

New member
HB? Kesa? Hey sweeties..where the heck..have ya put my 'Furious Pills'..I seem to be quite out of step with the american people. Wait..mebbe I have been ...'Disallowed'? Oh..ya found em..but SOLD them..oh ok..divvie-up..and I'll say no more about it.. ;) signed..Us.
 

ardeagold

New member
I'm sorry Ina, but yawn. I did change my post to read "many Americans"... however even if I hadn't qualified it...the people who are furious are still Americans.
 

Windancer

New member
I am NOT against health care reform..I really don't think anyone is....I am against a single payer system, which is Obamas stated direction.....I am against certain provisions of the bill . like 'The Gov has access to your bank account'...Things have been added and snatched from the bill and I have not had time to keep up with it....But if you go to the 'Cash for Klunkers' site...you have to agree that the governmnet owns your computer and it's information....go check for yourself. Now something is going on here...that surely makes me suspicious....fear? Oh...maybe.....not just hysterical fear....but fear that no one will pay attention to what is happening. Is everyone entitled to health insurance, and health care? How about a free house...free car...free food...oh wait....we all ready have that.....how about personal accountability? how about a little work in exchange for these things? Would that be too much to ask? isn't that better than enslaving people by owning them?
 
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gitchegumee

New member
No. Our country is emphatically a republic...not a democracy. There is a very important difference...which you pointed out.

A republic is ruled by law ... a democracy is ruled by majority.
I believe a representative democracy and a republic are fairly synonymous, but I could be wrong. Hard to recall my poly-sci classes in great detail.

That's what we PAY them to do. And if they'd read them, perhaps they'd know why the "majority" whom they represent to pass these things into law, are so strongly against them. Which would be the REAL issue.
I don't think we pay our representatives to read the entirety of every bill. Typically that is what some of the staffers do and then present a condensed verison to the rep.

Yep, that's logical. Impact millions of Americans forever, because it sounds like it just might be what YOU want, even though you don't know what you're voting for..and the people you represent don't want it.
Forever? Where is that coming from? Nothing is forever. Everything can be modified, amended, etc.

Again, the representatives have to do what they believe is the right thing to do. Not what their party tells them to do and not what current public opinion might suggest. We elect them as leaders and we should expect them to lead. To lead, not to follow, not bow to lobbyists or special interest, not to worry about getting re-elected. To lead!

If we do not like the direction they lead us then we make a change. Which, if I am not mistaken, was pretty clear last November. And next election that could all change.

Unfortunately that's exactly what the Congress wants to do...and is why the American people are furious.
American people are furious? I guess that's why there are all kinds of demonstrations, etc. Most people I know are unhappy that Congress can't agree on anything so nothing get's done. And not just on Healthcare.

There is so much "my way or the highway" that people have forgotten how to compromise. Compromise is the only way things work. Unless we want to hire Dick Ch---- as dictator. Sorry, that was a cheap shot.
 

gitchegumee

New member
I vote we pay for a NN 'highlighter'..so those who find a 'fear'..in every day news..can have their 'fear related comments'..posted in glittering neon red. It wouldn't help us..but it sure would allow them an extra-venting..and that..would be a public service..I'm thinkin'... ina n HB n Kesa
You have my vote!!
 

ardeagold

New member
American people are furious? I guess that's why there are all kinds of demonstrations, etc.
Yep...have you been missing the news lately? Or are they not showing these things on the MSM? And of course, there are the polls.
 

ina/puusty

New member
Hey..for the adventurous..Washington state has no income tax either..for those who wish to 'hide out'..so to speak. ;) ina n HB n Kesa
 

pabusinesswoman

New member
Sounds like post WWII paranoia again
There are lots of thing going on that parallel WWII.. the economy.. and other factors ... most seemly going toward ways to control the people not free them. A few have blown off my statements, but the more you look into the bills proposed and research parallel historical topics, the similarities are astounding. In the current times, I am hoping history does NOT repeat itself.

- Since this administration has came in they have tried to attack the right to bear arms several times... one of the core constitutional rights. The Germans disarmed the people and they could not defend themselves. Then the govt. came in and did what they wish with the people.Guns don't kill people on their own. It's idiotic people using them .. who have not been properly trained ... who have been raised in areas of violence... or have alternior motives that give them a bad name. I carry my pistol permit proudly and hunted for years to help put food on the table.

- This tattle tale system is another step towards controlling what people read and hear. They have tried multiple times to attack freedom of speech during this regime. They have attacked talk radio on mult. occasions and this is another way to try to find out who is saying anything negative so they can find ways to "deal" with them. WWII had several "concequences" for anyone who spoke out against the ruler. I am waiting to see what this turns into. It doesn't look like anything good to me. Just another attempt to kill freedom of speech.

- They went in and used tax payers money to bail out companies. The government should not have vested shares in private companies in a democracy. When this happens, other governments have dictated what can and cannot be made.. see GM at this point.. once a good company.. owned them almost all my life.. now won't by another if I can help it. Also reference Hitler and his take over of Volkswagon.

-They are making all of these new things that seem to be great... but they are ways to get data to control people. The clunkers program... when a dealer accepts a car under this, to get the funding they must drain out all of the oil, and put in a additive to disable and ruin the while driveline waisting and entire vehicle that someone that has a very restricted income could have bought used. How is that helping the "little man"? The government gets the computers out of the vehicles. This tracks all driving data. Hmmmm.. and what may they use that for?

-They have bypassed normal due process procedures acting more in a parody to a dictator than a democracy by forcing the passing of the stimuls (rumor has it by threating martial law) and bypassing govenors who refused the stimulus package due to all of the "strings" attached allowing the state house and senate to choose still to take the monies. To bypass the govenor is ILLEGAL. I am still trying to figure out how they are getting away with it. The President has also stated on the nuclear treaty that is up for renewal with Russia... if they do not come to an agreement that gives the house/ senate enough time to review it, he will just sign another executive order since he feels like it.. bypassing all proper channels/ checks and balances. He has over a year to get that done and get it approved by congress yet is screwing around so he can just do it through exec. order to get what he wants... again .. not following protocall like he should. He has the majority of the votes. Why not follow the proper channels?

-When one reads these bills, the Give Act has several parallels to the Hitler youth. I pray it will never be used in the same way. I personally read several sections of the bill, did research on the youth program, and seen several of the parodies.. scary quite scary. The group Americorp (one of the folks who helped our currrent pres. get in) which is to run most of this was given millions of stimulus money. Millions of extra money was going to be wasted by this program rather than just giving money to currently established entities that are already in place.

- The Food Act they are trying to pass can stop the local mom and pop food stands from being able to run. All food would have to inspected by the FDA.. control. Don't we as Americans have the right .. to knowing buy food from whomever we want? If this passes.. nope.

-The Federal government.. this administration...shut down of the water line into California was a way to show a whole region they were at the mercy of the government.... threatening thousands of people's lively hoods and a large portion of the local food supply. After enough uproar and many of the people getting close to loosing their crops and livelyhood, they finally decided to turn it back on. The people said they did not want governement handouts to live.. they just wanted water. That's pretty sad when they cut people's water off...hungry for power

-The heathcare bill .. similar to the German one... limits benefits older people can get based upon age not necessity. The German policy got to a point when they ran out of money they used euthanisia. If people are refused treatment since they are going to die of "old age anyway" I don't see how that is humane treatment. Also, look at the VA healthplan, medicare, social security, Fannie Mae/ Freddie mac.. can someone name 1 government plan that is effective or has not overspent itself into a point that the program quality has diminished? Someone was also discussing the American Indian treatment...all of the government promises there... they can't even keep promises/ programs for them working effectively and that's a small group. How are they going to do it for a nation this size?????? People can barely afford to keep their houses or food on the table.. and let's add more of a tax burdeon for a wasteful tax program to give extra funds to his buddies.

Do reforms need made? He** yes! Should the goverment be forcing wasteful programs down our throat putting my unborn grandchildren in debt before their even born? I don't think so. They gripe so many Americans don't live within their means. Boy isn't the goverment calling the kettle black with trillions in debt. They're good teachers.

The private sector has become very efficient when properly motivated. I am sure they could come up with a more efficient, less wastefull healthcare solution if prosed with the opportunity. I have not seen where the government has gone to the companies to even see what they come up with before forcing this program.

Democrat or Republican? I am an independent. I think there are a bunch of scheisters on both sides only out for their own good and not the benefit of the people. Ex. If the propsed healthcare is so great, why aren't they willing to give up their current "posh" healthcare plan to go on this lovely plan they are proposing? The large percentage of refusals would lead one to believe... it sucks! Why are the senators of PA down in Washington giving $1000/ plate dinners instead of being up here in their districts seeing what their people need in the current economic situations? Oh.. yes.. then we have Arelen Spector too.. that changes parties based upon who is going to save his behind the best just so he can keep being a career politician.

Quite frankly I'm tired of all of them. I hope at elections, the people clean house. These people keep making stupid laws just to justify their jobs and control the populus. They waste money left and right... giving themselves tons of perks and screwing the people. Many have been caught lying out of their teeth...saying 1 think in public but writing/ passing bills stating the complete opposite.

I really have to quit reading these political postings... going to bed now.. I'm stressed.
 
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ardeagold

New member
Washington State is absolutely gorgeous...but too much rain, and it's too close to CA and OR. :lol: ;) It could get invaded by the "progressive" left. hahahahahaha!!

I'll take Texas. I love their spirit. Austin is very nice.

And Michelle...bravo. I agree with 100% of your post. Well said.
 
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