Normal behavior or not?

cbendz

New member
Next week Drako will be 4 months old, and in the past few days he has been behaving really weird. I am not sure why but he is playing more "aggressively" (biting more), and being more hard headed to get what he wants. I am not sure if we are doing something wrong, but we can see patterns:

Excitement: Now we are avoiding being too excited when saying hi to him, he will get way too happy and start biting. So, desensitizing (which I really don't like) was our only choice, we have to tell our family and friends to just say hi kindly and wait for a while to pet him. Some days I have to put him on time out several times, because he wants to bite and not in a playing way.

Also, last week we noticed that he started the humping stage. He probably will get neuter in 3 weeks. Maybe, this can be the issue??

The thought of maybe because he was too "spoiled" came to my mind, but he is going to obedience class (although, I have to point out that last Thursday he was barking like I have never seen him barking before), he is socializing, going for long walk, etc.

Is this a normal stage?? Is it the baby teeth maybe bothering him? or the humping stage?
 
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wrknnwf

Active member
You mean like a little alligator. Yup, that would be normal. You need to let him know that isn't acceptable, though. Gentle, but firm. If he's grabbing you, either trade your hand, arm, clothing, etc. for an appropriate toy, or crate him, or get up and leave the room. You can also try yelping really loud.

If he didn't get enough time with his litter, he hasn't learned bite inhibition yet, but he will if you are consistent with him.
 

cbendz

New member
You mean like a little alligator. Yup, that would be normal. You need to let him know that isn't acceptable, though. Gentle, but firm. If he's grabbing you, either trade your hand, arm, clothing, etc. for an appropriate toy, or crate him, or get up and leave the room. You can also try yelping really loud.

If he didn't get enough time with his litter, he hasn't learned bite inhibition yet, but he will if you are consistent with him.
We worked over the biting stage since the beginning since we knew it was part of the teething stage, but now he is not being playful anymore. I am not sure if he is trying to be territorial, the time outs are constant... The aggressiveness surprises me since Newfies are suppose to be sweet and playful even when they are biting.
 

Puppypeoplenj

New member
This is a great time when you can search and find articles upon articles upon articles about the biting (search nipping, biting, teething, land shark, etc). It's part of being a puppy, and if he left his litter early this stage can be a bit more difficult. There are plenty of great strategies outlined in the archived threads, though. :)

There is a wealth of great information on here about when to neuter him and why, including many scientific articles detailing studies and their results. I think there's a great one with over 700 Golden Retrievers that really provides evidence of the damage early neutering can cause. Even for a smaller dog, 4.5 months would be much much too early.
 

cbendz

New member
This is a great time when you can search and find articles upon articles upon articles about the biting (search nipping, biting, teething, land shark, etc)...
I have researched about this, but as you might be aware of there are so many different research with so many different opinions. I would even prefer to leave him with out neutering (on a natural stage), unfortunately some of the insurances push you to do this before a certain time (which I am not happy with). I ask for opinions here because I think that people who has the experience (specially with this breed) would definitely give you that input or facilitate (like you just did) some information that maybe I didn't find when I was researching.

I appreciate the advice, and will keep searching and researching what else to do. Thank you!
 

DAWNMERIE

Active member
Have you researched here? Use the search button up top and you can find tons of info...ton's!!!! Do not let the insurance company influence your choice and it is your choice! If that's the case I'd love to know what pet insurance company is telling you that?
 

Elizabeth

New member
Glad to hear you are researching the best time to neuter, there is solid scientific proof about the dangers of neutering/spaying early for our giant breeds. What does your breeder say about it? I think everyone here is probably in agreement with waiting until 18-24 months.

E
 

Shel

Active member
I have researched about this, but as you might be aware of there are so many different research with so many different opinions.
It is very difficult to offer advice without seeing the behaviour in question, and seeing how the methods used to stop the behaviour are being executed. This is when puppy classes or your breeder can be of great help. It could be that you're (unintentionally) not following through with the training methods. You may be ending the corrective phase while your pup is still over-stimulated. Perhaps you're responding with a "level 5" correction when you're puppy is at a "level 9" excitement level. A professional trainer would be able to help find the training method that works for Drako and you.

I would even prefer to leave him with out neutering (on a natural stage), unfortunately some of the insurances push you to do this before a certain time (which I am not happy with).
The insurance company wants you to neuter him younger because the procedure is generally less expensive. It is in their best interest. They are not considering what is best for Drako.

I think that people who has the experience (specially with this breed) would definitely give you that input or facilitate (like you just did) some information that maybe I didn't find when I was researching.
A decade ago, I had a "land shark puppy". He did not respond to the typical bite inhibition training. If I yelped, it seemed to fuel him on and his play (biting) would intensify. Time outs, ignoring, redirecting, leaving the room... nothing worked. A trainer suggested that I use a different tactic. The next time the puppy bit my hand I was told to make a fist and push it into his mouth until he gagged. I was told to hold it there just long enough, until the pup was actively attempting to disengage... all the while repeating a cue. Yes, it hurts to rake your fist against sharp puppy teeth, but it was worth it in the long run. It took three episodes before the puppy learned it was no longer fun to put his teeth on me. The cue was an effective reminder when he became over excited and was tempted to play rough.

This method is not necessary for most puppies. Most pups respond to common bite inhibition methods. I shared this with you because it wasn't one that I read in any book or on any website.
 
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Jeannie

Super Moderator
All the behavior is normal for a puppy. You will have additional issues since he was taken from the litter at 6 weeks of age, which is way to young. There is a lot of things she didn't learn from his littermates and mother.

Neutering will not stop humping. In my boarding kennel neutered dog as well as female dogs hump other dogs. It is a dominate thing - something you need to nip in the butt right away.

You should not get him neutered until he is at least 18 months old. There are too many health problems that are related to early neutering. Just to name 2 - cancers and torn ACLs. Surgery for a torn ACL can run $2000-$3500.

When you say insurance pushes the neutering to be done early are you talking about health insurance for your dog? IMO I'd rather pay for a neutering then have to pay for cancer treatments or surgery for a torn ACL. Some insurances will not cover these types of problems.
 

Puppypeoplenj

New member
I have researched about this, but as you might be aware of there are so many different research with so many different opinions.
Oh, sorry, I realize how vague I was when I used the word "search." I meant that you should look in this site under the search tab, and that you should enter those terms in, and there would be lots of threads with lots of useful info. :)
 

OodlesOfNoodles

New member
Steering away from the neutering question, which others are addressing admirably, his behaviour is normal - it's just a sucky stage that you don't hear a lot about (unless you get a chance to read some of the dozens of threads on here about similar behaviours). From what I've learned, it's not aggression - it's dominance and testing his boundaries.

Here's a thread I started when my guy was pretty much the exact same age as yours: http://www.newf.net/Forums/showthread.php?t=106263

YorkvilleNewf posted a bunch of great links to other threads in the 1st response to mine - take a look and don't feel like it's something you did that caused this; it's likely just normal behaviour. However, it is definitely undesirable behaviour and you need to work hard to stop it. For us, Leonard's vinegar and water in a spray bottle was what worked, everything else got Finn too riled up. Finn's 9 months old now and a LOT better; that being said, out of the blue he still will go nutty while on a walk, or try and grab my wrist while we're playing. When that happens, we go back to basics - for us, that means taking the spray bottle around with us for a few days until he got the point that we're going to be consistent with our behaviour and that if he tries to test us, it won't work.

Re: your humping question - I'm skeptical that it's playing that much of a factor other than being part of the dominance routine, as Finn never tried to hump anything until last night :)banghead:) and he still went through the same stage. If you're curious, he's still not neutered.
 

Sound Bay Newfs

Active member
I have researched about this, but as you might be aware of there are so many different research with so many different opinions. I would even prefer to leave him with out neutering (on a natural stage), unfortunately some of the insurances push you to do this before a certain time (which I am not happy with). I ask for opinions here because I think that people who has the experience (specially with this breed) would definitely give you that input or facilitate (like you just did) some information that maybe I didn't find when I was researching.

I appreciate the advice, and will keep searching and researching what else to do. Thank you!
Neutering early is not good and there are many studies on future health issues associated with early neutering. Wait til he at least 2 if you can. Humping has nothing to do with being intact. It is a behavioral issue. There is a wealth of information here in the Sticky threads at the top of the discussions. What insurance companies push you to neuter early? Never heard of that. Vets will push you to neuter early but you have to do what you want with your dog. Biting can get over the top with some newf pups. They need training and firm control. Make sure he knows you are in charge and discourage the behavior by ignoring him when he bites. Pets when he does behave.
 

cbendz

New member
Guys can I say how glad I'm to be part of this Newfie family!! Thank you for all your advices!

Have you researched here? Use the search button up top and you can find tons of info...ton's!!!! Do not let the insurance company influence your choice and it is your choice! If that's the case I'd love to know what pet insurance company is telling you that?
Guilty, I didn’t research here. I have read other sticky notes that I have found in other pages s. So, it didn’t cross my mind about reading here about this specific issue, but I definitely will now. Regarding the insurance, since he was very young we decided to go through a well-known pet store (I think that we have to avoid mentioning names on this forum): We decided to sign him up there for the obedience classes and for well-known Pet Hospital that you can find in there as well. This Pet Hospital offers two health insurance and of course they encourage to get the most expensive package that includes neuter telling you things like “This recommended procedure helps your pet live a healthier, happier, longer life and minimizes dog overpopulation. We always thoroughly assess your puppy's health before anesthesia, and build baselines to guide current and future care.”… Anyway, now I know was the wrong thing to do. His trainer and Vet. are from the same place and although you read and research about pros and cons, when those “professionals” use the phrase “What is best for your puppy” you doubt yourself and trust them.
… This is when puppy classes or your breeder can be of great help. It could be that you're (unintentionally) not following through with the training methods. You may be ending the corrective phase while your pup is still over-stimulated. Perhaps you're responding with a "level 5" correction when you're puppy is at a "level 9" excitement level. A professional trainer would be able to help find the training method that works for Drako and you.
Few weeks after I got Drako I realized that my breeder did a lot of things that should have been red flags for me, but I thought they were “minor” at the time (BIG MISTAKE). Just to tell you one of them: The day I picked up Drako, I asked if I could to see his mother and the breeder suddenly starts telling me that the mother was not available for visits because few months before she got pregnant she got hit by a car, that her hips got worse after the delivery of the puppies and that the whole pregnancy was something that wasn’t “planned”. She was telling me all this after everything was signed and I holding Drako heading to my car. Due to this and other factors, I do not feel that she is interested about what happens to the puppies after they are gone.
Anyhow, I started with training at home right of the bat (after reading and researching how to train him and motivate his mind), and when he went to the obedience classes he was way ahead (which of course I was very proud). After few weeks in the training classes I realized that these ones were helping more with the socialization than anything else. So I think a real professional trainer it’s my next step.
All the behavior is normal for a puppy. You will have additional issues since he was taken from the litter at 6 weeks of age, which is way to young. There is a lot of things she didn't learn from his littermates and mother.
Neutering will not stop humping. In my boarding kennel neutered dog as well as female dogs hump other dogs. It is a dominate thing - something you need to nip in the butt right away.
You should not get him neutered until he is at least 18 months old. There are too many health problems that are related to early neutering. Just to name 2 - cancers and torn ACLs. Surgery for a torn ACL can run $2000-$3500.

When you say insurance pushes the neutering to be done early are you talking about health insurance for your dog? IMO I'd rather pay for a neutering then have to pay for cancer treatments or surgery for a torn ACL. Some insurances will not cover these types of problems.
Yes, I was talking about the health insurance, and I definitely agree with you.
… his behaviour is normal - it's just a sucky stage that you don't hear a lot about (unless you get a chance to read some of the dozens of threads on here about similar behaviours). From what I've learned, it's not aggression - it's dominance and testing his boundaries.
I agree… we are aware about the land shark stage but it was more than that and you are right, it’s basically that “testing the dominance and boundaries”. Yesterday my husband and I went out for a couple of hours, and my mother stayed with Drako, and while we were gone my siblings and some friends came to visit. My mom was telling me that Drako behaved very well, and that she didn’t have any problems with him biting or barking. This is the second time somebody have mentioned this and it seems that he is only doing that while we (his human parents) are in the picture.
 
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Ginny

New member
The sad reality is that most vets haven't a clue how to deal with giants. Ditto what others have said about waiting to neuter him.

Does your insurance co. exclude breed specific problems? I use Embrace insurance, have had nothing but good dealings with them, and recommend it to all my puppy buyers. They don't exclude breed problems and have never even mentioned neutering any of my dogs. He's young enough that you can change insurance companies if yours isn't great... If you plan to do so, do it before any problems arise so you won't have pre-existing conditions.

Newfs are gentle giants, but they're not born that way. You've a puppy on your hands who will need patience and consistency. It's great that you're not greeting him with enthusiasm. I'd just enter the home and totally ignore him for a while and only pay attention to him when all is calm. Have others do this too. When he gets worked up, stop the play, and walk away. You may want to explore clicker training. Karen Pryor has a great site with tons of tips and activities.
 

mmbrod02

New member
Scarlett went through a phase that sounds exactly what Drako is going through. I did not have a clue what happened to her and was so surprised when my sweet dog started biting, barking, and acting like a land shark. She is now 9 months and has come out of that stage, although I have been warned the phase may come back again. I had the misconception that newfs were automatically gentle giants from the start and while Scarlett is becoming a gentle giant, some of her puppy behaviors were very far from gentle. Yelping did not help at all with her, neither did shouting "no." The best thing for Scarlett when she acts up is to walk away from her and close the door on her- I would go into the bathroom for a minute and let her calm down and when I came out she would stop her wild behavior. When I went to a newfoundland picnic I was told I could hold her ears and give them a slight twist as this would cause her discomfort and firmly say, "no!" but walking away proved to be better for us. Drako will come out of that stage.
I also agree with others on holding off until he is older to neuter him. I met a newf. rescue dog recently that is smaller than Scarlett (who is small for the breed) and he was full grown. They said his size was due to neutering him at a young age. There is a lot of information on why a massive breed dog should not be fixed until they are older and I would just go ahead and let the insurance know that he will not be fixed until he is 18months-2 yrs.
 

YorkvilleNewfie

New member
I would seriously reconsider neutering Drako at 4½ months of age.
I agree. The research on this is pretty unequivocal and very many vets are recomending waiting until at least 18 months to alter giant breed dogs. Most Newf breeders recommend it as well, so much so that it is typically included as a requirement in the sales contract of a conscientious breeder.

I am almost 100% certain that if I had known what I know now and had waited to spay my girl, I wouldn't have had to cough up $4000 for a TPLO on her ruptured CCL (there is a strong correlation between early alterations and CCL, or cranial cruciate ligament, ruptures) at a mere 13 months of age. My girl lost the entire second year of her life to recovery and rehab and now at age 3 and a half suffers from early onset osteoarthritis. She's 3 and she moves like a 12 year old. It makes me sick with grief every day watching her move the way she does now. On top of that, I get to spend every day of the rest of her life worrying over whether or not my decision will cost her life in the form of Osteosarcoma.

I cannot recommend highly enough waiting to at least 18 months to neuter your boy. Cannot.
 
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YorkvilleNewfie

New member
And click through Oodles of Noodles link. And then click through those links there. Newf pups can be extremely challenging. Extremely.
 
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