Does size matter?

[Largo]

Thinking about these giant dogs and their joints has had me wondering on many occasions if their size is a factor. By that I mean a factor in the prevalence of Joint issues and disease and how severely or not the dog is affected.

It seems obvious that genetics plays a role what with good and excellent joint parents coming from the same, producing dysplastic offspring. But how many joint issues are not genetic and or the genetics would not present on xray or in life, but for the size of the dog? In our case Newfs. I do wonder If breeding them smaller, perhaps just for a time along with best breeding practices when choosing sires and dams would move things closer to eliminating joint issues and disease? Or at least making it uncommon? And not only smaller, but shorter in loin. Yes I know that there are medium and large size dogs that also suffer from joint issues and joint disease. But structure is a factor. Rate of growth is also a factor and the larger the dog, the faster the dog grows to reach its adult size and the heavier they are while still young and vulnerable. I've posted studies on the growth rate factor in the past and how young many dogs are when they present with problems on closer examination. Some just weeks old. Newfs are not only growing tall, but long and heavy, this would present a mechanical problem.

I do wonder if body height and length and rate of growth and heavy bone so young need to be seriously considered in the battle to end or make uncommon joint issues and disease? I also as a side note, wonder if the trend of a low protein diet also figured into the non genetic joint problems? I personally think it did. How much? I would love to hear long time breeders thoughts and experience on the issue of size. Thanks.

 

[Murphy]

Well I don't know squat about this kind of stuff but I do know that I have an extraordinarily tall Newf with joint issues too numerous to mention. He is not overweight though.. Just throwing that out there. I know it has little to do with your post.. very thoughtful thread..

Peter knows a lot about this kind of stuff and I'm sure he will chime in.

 

[R Taft]

I am not sure.....I have known one lineage of huge newfs, who were nearly all very sound dogs and lived long lives. They were able to jump and stayed sound. I have also known some small newfs, who have become unsound. It would be interesting to see some more answers

 

[ardeagold]

Well, maybe size within the breed itself matters.

The reason I say that is because, as everyone knows, Goldens are MUCH smaller than Newfs...yet they suffer as many joint issues as Newfs do. So do Labs.

Therefore, I wonder if it's the oversizing of the breed itself (whatever that breed may be), or if it's purely related to structure and/or genetics?

 

[R Taft]

Well, maybe size within the breed itself matters.

The reason I say that is because, as everyone knows, Goldens are MUCH smaller than Newfs...yet they suffer as many joint issues as Newfs do. So do Labs.

Therefore, I wonder if it's the oversizing of the breed itself (whatever that breed may be), or if it's purely related to structure and/or genetics?

Never thought much about that...Interesting. you also get a lot of small terriers with knee problems and some hips. maybe it is all about conformation. I mean conformation is first and foremost in horses

 

[TinaM]

Well I don't know squat about this kind of stuff but I do know that I have an extraordinarily tall Newf with joint issues too numerous to mention. He is not overweight though.. Just throwing that out there. I know it has little to do with your post.. very thoughtful thread..

Peter knows a lot about this kind of stuff and I'm sure he will chime in.

Our Murphy was very tall too. I have often wondered if this is what contributed to his ortho problems and myriad of complications that plagued his short life. I think it is an interesting question and wonder how it relates to ACL issues.

 

[Leonard and his bud Snuffles]

Well, maybe size within the breed itself matters.

The reason I say that is because, as everyone knows, Goldens are MUCH smaller than Newfs...yet they suffer as many joint issues as Newfs do. So do Labs.

Therefore, I wonder if it's the oversizing of the breed itself (whatever that breed may be), or if it's purely related to structure and/or genetics?

Of course I have no idea, but one of Snuffles friends who we have not seen in quite some time is a lab from I gather a reputable breeder. I was told by the "Dad" that the labs in general have been breed bigger than the originals causing more and more joint problems. The breeder they went though breed more the original size. It will be interesting to see as the dogs get older, if they develop these type problems.

 

[M & M's Mom Linda]

Marcus is very big...not heavy but very tall. Pre-lims show he has no hip or elbow issues. We will have tests done in the next 2 months for OFA. Honestly...I hate how big he has gotten...I like a good sized Newf but Marcus is skinny, 32' tall and almost 180 lbs.

 

[BluwaterNewfs]

I had a long discussion with my vet one time about this. What she said, was that structure and proportion is what was important more that size. When an animal's structure was not right, they were likely to have problems since their movement is not necessarily what it should be or they compensate to move correctly which puts undue stress on joint. It made a lot sense to me. Of course, that means that a dog with proper structure won't get hurt with things like an ACL tear.

 

[Murphy]

Marcus is very big...not heavy but very tall. Pre-lims show he has no hip or elbow issues. We will have tests done in the next 2 months for OFA. Honestly...I hate how big he has gotten...I like a good sized Newf but Marcus is skinny, 32' tall and almost 180 lbs.

Holy Cow Linda.. 180 lbs??? Murph is about 150lbs. where did my baby Marcus go? :bear:

 

[Newfs Forever]

I would think probably. But I know NOTHING about breed and genetics. All I can say is in my own experience, I feel as though you need a combination of things:

Quality food
MINIMAL vaccs
Exercise
Good gene pool

I guess my point is perhaps these super canine giant breeds need lots of fingers, paws, toes and eyes crossed to have longevity.

 

[ardeagold]

Of course I have no idea, but one of Snuffles friends who we have not seen in quite some time is a lab from I gather a reputable breeder. I was told by the "Dad" that the labs in general have been breed bigger than the originals causing more and more joint problems. The breeder they went though breed more the original size. It will be interesting to see as the dogs get older, if they develop these type problems.

Labs and Goldens virtually have two different "lines" within their gene pools. There is the show variety, which are bulkier (broader chest etc) and have heavy bone. In the case of Goldens, they also have more hair. Then there is the field variety, which is more "lithe", less bone, more streamlined.

I don't know about Labs, but I do know that in Goldens, there is less HD in the field lines than there is in the show lines. However, they're virtually two separate gene pools, and not many are "crossed".

So, because the build is so different in the two "lines", perhaps it IS purely structural. But also...genetic (because they're separate gene pools). Height doesn't play as much of a role as overall "bulk".

The field people don't like the show lines because they feel the structure has been altered to look "prettier" in the ring, yet severely handicaps the dog in the field (which, after all, IS their intended job).

Perhaps it also handicaps them in the health area as well. If the structure is correct, they should be able to race through fields and swim through ponds/lakes, retrieve birds, run, jump and swim, and not suffer cruciate injuries. Granted any dog (or human) can suffer an injury if they overdo it, but generally not.

 

[BluwaterNewfs]

Labs and Goldens virtually have two different "lines" within their gene pools. There is the show variety, which are bulkier (broader chest etc) and have heavy bone. In the case of Goldens, they also have more hair. Then there is the field variety, which is more "lithe", less bone, more streamlined.

I don't know about Labs, but I do know that in Goldens, there is less HD in the field lines than there is in the show lines. However, they're virtually two separate gene pools, and not many are "crossed".

So, because the build is so different in the two "lines", perhaps it IS purely structural. But also...genetic (because they're separate gene pools). Height doesn't play as much of a role as overall "bulk".

The field people don't like the show lines because they feel the structure has been altered to look "prettier" in the ring, yet severely handicaps the dog in the field (which, after all, IS their intended job).

Perhaps it also handicaps them in the health area as well. If the structure is correct, they should be able to race through fields and swim through ponds/lakes, retrieve birds, run, jump and swim, and not suffer cruciate injuries. Granted any dog (or human) can suffer an injury if they overdo it, but generally not.

This proves the point that my vet was making! it also why there is concern of recognizing newfs for just their working ability - many are afraid the same that happened to the labs would happen to the newfs.

 

[M & M's Mom Linda]

Baby Marcus is gone...he is very tall but thin...he is just a huge Newf boy. We have an appointment to have his hips and elbows done the first week of May. We did pre-lims at a year and it was good. Heart is cleared as per a sonogram, Thyroid is done per Dr. Dodds and is fine...Eyes were fine...just waiting for the OFA results. He seems to be a very healthy...he is a cystinaria carrier which we knew by the time he was 5 weeks old.
I think he comes from a good gene pool, He is certainly been feed good food both from is breeder and now our family. He is exercised often. He is titered every year and since year one has not needed any additionally Vaccines. He does have monthly heart worm and front line.

 

[Peter Maniate]

I had a long discussion with my vet one time about this. What she said, was that structure and proportion is what was important more that size. When an animal's structure was not right, they were likely to have problems since their movement is not necessarily what it should be or they compensate to move correctly which puts undue stress on joint. It made a lot sense to me. Of course, that means that a dog with proper structure won't get hurt with things like an ACL tear.

Your vet is absolutely right but there is another wrinkle that I have observed over the years. It is easier to get good structure and proportion in a Newf if they are not oversize.

When I started breeding in the 70's I studied the top breeders of the time and one strategy that seemed to work well was to breed small bitches that moved like the wind to large males. Of course in those days, a small good moving bitch could easily earn a championship title but that would be next to impossible nowadays.

If you want to know if your Newf has the proper proportions, just watch him/her running free in a large area. If it is a delight to watch your dog move at a full gallop, if he/she seems to be poetry in motion and if bystanders stop and watch in awe, then you know that all the parts of the body are as they should be.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

Labs and Goldens virtually have two different "lines" within their gene pools. There is the show variety, which are bulkier (broader chest etc) and have heavy bone. In the case of Goldens, they also have more hair. Then there is the field variety, which is more "lithe", less bone, more streamlined.

I don't know about Labs, but I do know that in Goldens, there is less HD in the field lines than there is in the show lines. However, they're virtually two separate gene pools, and not many are "crossed".

So, because the build is so different in the two "lines", perhaps it IS purely structural. But also...genetic (because they're separate gene pools). Height doesn't play as much of a role as overall "bulk".

The field people don't like the show lines because they feel the structure has been altered to look "prettier" in the ring, yet severely handicaps the dog in the field (which, after all, IS their intended job).

Perhaps it also handicaps them in the health area as well. If the structure is correct, they should be able to race through fields and swim through ponds/lakes, retrieve birds, run, jump and swim, and not suffer cruciate injuries. Granted any dog (or human) can suffer an injury if they overdo it, but generally not.

Structure and angulation are more significant than size, I believe. If the dog is big but well balanced with good angulation, it is better than a smaller dog with poor structure and angulation.

Donna, for Labs it is just the opposite between the English and American Labs. The English Labs are smaller and rounder but are the original Labs that have been used for decades as hunting and field dogs. The American Lab is a more recent development that is taller, thinner and more active and originated more from mid west breeders. English Labs actually have less health problems but it seems all breeds have health issues regardless of size.

 

[AngusMcDubhsMom]

If you want to know if your Newf has the proper proportions, just watch him/her running free in a large area. If it is a delight to watch your dog move at a full gallop, if he/she seems to be poetry in motion and if bystanders stop and watch in awe, then you know that all the parts of the body are as they should be.

Peter, you are a poet!

 

[Codes]

When I started breeding in the 70's I studied the top breeders of the time and one strategy that seemed to work well was to breed small bitches that moved like the wind to large males. Of course in those days, a small good moving bitch could easily earn a championship title but that would be next to impossible nowadays.

Nah...not next to impossible but it does require some time and patience. My Faith earned her Championship last year. She's not a big girl but boy can she MOVE!!! Sometimes good things really do come in small packages:sunflower:

Attached are couple of my favorite photos of Faith taken a couple years ago with her previous handler.

 

[Peter Maniate]

Attached are couple of my favorite photos of Faith taken a couple years ago with her previous handler.

Love the reach and drive on your girl.

 

[Bella and Gabe]

Nah...not next to impossible but it does require some time and patience. My Faith earned her Championship last year. She's not a big girl but boy can she MOVE!!! Sometimes good things really do come in small packages:sunflower:

Attached are couple of my favorite photos of Faith taken a couple years ago with her previous handler.

WOW! She's stunning and certainly poetry in motion by the looks of the photo!