Does size matter?

janices

New member
When I started breeding in the 70's I studied the top breeders of the time and one strategy that seemed to work well was to breed small bitches that moved like the wind to large males. Of course in those days, a small good moving bitch could easily earn a championship title but that would be next to impossible nowadays.
I'll also echo it's not impossible to finish a smaller good moving bitch. It does take some time and patience. I find there's too many that don't have patience when dealing with conformation ring.




Brooke with handler Lara Spears
 
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Peter Maniate

New member
I'll also echo it's not impossible to finish a smaller good moving bitch. It does take some time and patience. I find there's too many that don't have patience when dealing with conformation ring.




Brooke with handler Lara Spears
WOW! Another good example of reach and drive. For those not sure of what good reach is - the front leg should reach to the tip of the nose when moving at a trot.
 

R Taft

Active member
WOW! Another good example of reach and drive. For those not sure of what good reach is - the front leg should reach to the tip of the nose when moving at a trot.
That is how my small Annabelle moves....I love watching her run, she is so active
 

janices

New member
This proves the point that my vet was making! it also why there is concern of recognizing newfs for just their working ability - many are afraid the same that happened to the labs would happen to the newfs.
You do need an avenue for the pet working non-show newfs that are sold. Not all will be conformation champions. The problem runs deeper than just recognizing newfs for just their working ability. Dwelving into breeder education and mentoring, judges education, extremes winning in the show ring and continuing to breed the extremes.
 

BluwaterNewfs

New member
Yes, it is true not every dog is going to a conformation champion and many are going to be pets. The Working Dog Achievement award was created to encourage those not interested in conformation to pursue working titles. There is/was fear voiced that this would encourage breeding Newfs for working rather than an all around dog. Even though breeder education and judging education do not encourage 2 different styles of newf, that doesn't mean people won't start breeding for it.
 

Sun Valley

New member
Also, when watching from the rear...you want to be able to see the pads on the rear feet when 'going away'

We are also only looking at side movement on the pictures posted, which by the way are very nice. But I want too see the coming and going away movement. Is the dog close, hocky or wide in the rear ? Is the front toeing in, pastern's weak, etc?

I don't think size, be it small or large, necessarily means bad movement or good movement or soundness...I personally think it's all genetics.

LA
 

Pipelineozzy

New member
Also, when watching from the rear...you want to be able to see the pads on the rear feet when 'going away'

We are also only looking at side movement on the pictures posted, which by the way are very nice. But I want too see the coming and going away movement. Is the dog close, hocky or wide in the rear ? Is the front toeing in, pastern's weak, etc?

I don't think size, be it small or large, necessarily means bad movement or good movement or soundness...I personally think it's all genetics.

LA
Agreed...for the most part...but even a genetically GREAT dog will look like a putz if its not raised properly on good surfaces and given the opportunity to develop proper muscling.
 

Peter Maniate

New member
Also, when watching from the rear...you want to be able to see the pads on the rear feet when 'going away'

We are also only looking at side movement on the pictures posted, which by the way are very nice. But I want too see the coming and going away movement. Is the dog close, hocky or wide in the rear ? Is the front toeing in, pastern's weak, etc?

I don't think size, be it small or large, necessarily means bad movement or good movement or soundness...I personally think it's all genetics.

LA
These factors are necessary to evaluate a dog when being trotted in the show ring. However when a Newf runs free at a full gallop, only a side view is needed as all the defects mentioned would prevent the effortless movement that makes them poetry in motion along with any other structural defects. Unfortunately this cannot be captured in a still photo.

This ultimate test of motion of a Newf which is also the ultimate test of conformation is usually seen in a dog park rather than in a show ring. I just love getting reports such as "no one could believe that my dog is a Newf because he outran the greyhounds".

Another place to see motion confirming conformation is in the water. At a water rescue seminar or test I watch for a Newf that stands out because he/she swims effortlessly and never tires.
 

R Taft

Active member
Your statement about outrunning the greyhounds runs so true to me........Everyone is always amazed at the speed Annabelle gets up to when we are off leash at our grounds. She leaves a lot of the dogs for dead. I am especailly happy since the dog chiro loves her movement. Funny how you say about the offleash, because that is what he always wants to see. He was also very happy with Katy the other day. She really stretches out when she gallops. I have learnt so much from this chiro guy about movement and soundness. I take the dogs just to find out more, not because they are lame. he also teaches exercises to maintain or improve fitness. Which hopefully also leads to old age soundness.........
 

luvxl k 9

New member
Hi Rona, I've missed you!!!! Actually what we've found (Michigan State - Apache Regimen) is that it is a genetic predisposition to growing too fast. This is why some puppies in the same litter will be affected and some will not. (Even being fed the exact same foods) The higher protein and or caloried foods causes different joints, ligiments, etc. to grow at different rates, thus creating all kinds of joint and bone problems, including elbow anomaly, hip displasia, etc. and that by starting and keeping the larger breed puppies on a medium protein level for life of around 20-23% can actually prevent those puppies from developing the ortho/joint problems to begin with. The study they are doing now (they got the grant using Apache's before and after xrays about 5 years ago) is called Genetic deformities and how outside factors other than surgery can either PREVENT or Influence puppies with the predisposition from developing problems. Apache will turn 6 later this month, can keep up with Beau and Cole just fine, and the best news just had him adjusted last week again and the Chiropractor said the extra cartlidge in his elbows has gone down even more, something he never expected and that he has full range of motion in both elbows!!!!! Not bad for my boy that's never had a surgery but who won't make it to his first birthday without multiple ones. :hugs:
 

Ginny

New member
When will we see some of this published?
Maybe you can push MS to release their findings on this or if some have been released, you can get us links to the info. I'd think it would be tough to base a conclusion on one case.
 

janices

New member
When will we see some of this published?
Maybe you can push MS to release their findings on this or if some have been released, you can get us links to the info. I'd think it would be tough to base a conclusion on one case.
Ginny,
I just saw a new study published on outside factors relating to elbow dysplasia. It's not part of this growth study being referenced. Since Hulse is ortho I use I already knew they were working on this.


Vet Comp Orthop Traumatol. 2010 Apr 26;23(3). [Epub ahead of print]
Relationship of the biceps-brachialis complex to the medial coronoid process of the canine ulna.

Hulse D, Young B, Beale B, Kowaleski M, Vannini R.
Don Hulse, DVM, Diplomate ACVS, ECVS, College of Veterinary Medicine, Texas A&M University, Department of Small Animal Surgery, College Station, Texas 77845

Abstract

Objective: To describe the anatomic relationship of the biceps brachii-brachialis muscle complex and the medial compartment of the canine elbow. Study design: Anatomical cadaveric study. Methods: Cadaveric forelimbs, and radius and ulna bones were examined to study the anatomy of the biceps brachii-brachialis complex and its relationship to the medial compartment of the elbow. Results: The biceps brachii and brachialis muscles comprise a large muscular complex. The biceps brachii is a pennate fibred muscle which plays a major role in stabilising the elbow joint during the stance phase and facilitating limb acceleration during the swing phase. Additionally, the insertion of the muscular complex onto the ulnar tuberosity is such that a moment is generated which the authors hypothesise rotates the medial coronoid process against the radial head. The result is a compressive force which generates internal shear stress oblique to the long axis of the medial coronoid process. The authors further hypothesise that this may result in the microdamage or fragmentation of the medial coronoid process. Conclusion: The author's conclude that contraction of the biceps brachii and brachialis complex may explain an aetiopathogenesis for fragmented medial coronoid process not associated with elbow dysplasia.

PMID: 20422120 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
 
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luvxl k 9

New member
I did my part by getting them Apache's original before and after exrays and the reason they were able to get the grant was because they already had the results of the puppies feeding levels from their 5 year study on Elbow Anomaly. Last I heard from them Dr. Mostovski (spelling?) is no longer with the University, so I'm not sure who is in charge of it now. Barbara Jenness published their findings on Elbow Anomaly in Newf Tide 5 years after the beginning of that study, so I'm hoping something will be coming out soon since Apache will be 6 later this month.
 

Snowden

New member
Please tell me if I am reading this correctly... In puppies that are genetically predisposed to this growth defect/elbow abnormality. High protein levels will cause the affected puppies to have server abnormalities. But the gene needs to be present. It's not the high protein that actually causes the abnormality?
 
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