Clostridia, anyone?

graybird

New member
My poor Sophie has had diarrhea since we made a weekend trip to see my mom in the California Central Valley in late December. She is 2, and we've had her since mid-November; she came to us eating Proplan, and I had just finished switching her to Orijen 6 fish when we left. The vet did the basic fecal test, put her on metronidazole (1-1/2 tablets 2x a day) and Endosorb for any toxins and she's been on chicken breasts and rice since Christmas.

After no improvement, a PCR test the first week of January showed clostridium perfringens enterotoxin (note this is *not* clostridium difficile). Vet added ampicillin to the metro; she had been s-l-o-w-l-y improving (poops approaching modeling clay), but the ampicillin immediately gave her diarrhea (it's one of the side effects :grrr:). So we just continued with the metro and bland diet, with another few days of the Endosorb.

No particular improvement; poops range from look-formed-but-turn-to-mush-when-you-pick-'em-up to oatmeal-like plops. 'Nother visit last week, 'nother PCR test: the enterotoxin is still present. Blood panel normal.

Vet has a call in to an internist to discuss which antibiotic might best work here. In the mean time, she advised me to add back some kibble to her diet. I have done so -- slowly, of course -- and the diarrhea is now worse. :banghead:

My searches here have only turned up old info. Has anyone dealt with this in the last few years? I'm at my wits' end.
 
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victoria1140

Active member
I haven't dealt with the clostridium perfringens enterotoxin but we have dealt with lots of diarohea issues with Beau as well.

Personally I would go back to the bland diet until they eliminate all bugs as some of them are tricky buggers to get rid of and you need the right antibiotic to treat it.

Also add a probiotic into her diet, it may be of limited value while she is on antibiotics but it should help her digestive system .

Also if the chicken and rice didnt help try giving her fish and potato as she may have an allergy to either of them and if she was going ok on Orijen 6 fish then grain or chicken may upset her. Also the Orijen 6 fish may be a little rich for her in her delicate tummy state, perhaps a small bag of Acana (lower in protein) to try and help ease her back in
 

graybird

New member
Thanks, Victoria, I'm familiar with your issues with Beau and have been glad to see them resolving. I have been giving her "IFlora" probiotic for the last ten days or so, but didn't see a difference. I've started her back on TOTW Bison, rather than the Orijen -- I thought as well that the Orijen might be too rich. I can't get Acana except online. What kind of fish did you feed?
 

Thule's Mom

New member
Tylosin Powder

Found this on line and it sounds an awful like something Thule had a couple of bouts of, but she was never tested ..... my vet prescribed the tylosin powder, mentioned in the article, and it did the job.... I call it 'magic powder". I have some on hand, just in case.
Clostridium Perfringens Enterotoxicosis

Over the last 11 years Clostridium perfringens enterotoxicosis (CPE) has emerged as a frequently recognized cause of chronic intermittent diarrhea in dogs. Although it is likely a less common cause of diarrhea in cats it is still diagnosed frequently enough that it should be considered in the diagnosis of diarrhea in cats as well. This is not a new disease. Frequent use of the definitive test (enterotoxin assay) for this disorder has revealed that CPE is seen relatively commonly in clinical practice and that CPE is a disorder that should be considered in any dog or cat with intermittent or chronic persistent diarrhea.
C. perfringens is a normal vegetative enteric organism. Simply identifying C. perfringens on a fecal culture is meaningless. The pathogenesis of CPE is through an enterotoxin that is produced after certain strains of C. perfringens sporulate. The toxin damages epithelial cells of the distal ileum and colon. Inciting factors that promote sporulation are not clearly understood but may include stress, diet changes, concurrent disease, or inherent immune status.
The most common clinical signs are chronic intermittent or persistent diarrhea. In some animals acute diarrhea is the primary sign. In fact, some of the cases of hemorrhagic gastroenteritis (HGE syndrome), characterized by acute bloody diarrhea and an increased packed cell volume that most practitioners have seen over the years, may have been due to CPE. Many animals exhibit signs of large bowel diarrhea, but small bowel signs may be seen as well. In some cases signs may be seen for only a day or two at a time, with persistent recurrences on a weekly, monthly, or on a less frequent basis. Stressful events or diet changes may incite flare-ups of clinical signs. In other cases C. perfringens enterotoxicosis is one of several problems that an animal may have concurrently and diarrhea may be persistent.
Diagnosis

CPE must be considered whenever more than one animal in the environment has diarrhea (e.g., household, kennel, cattery). Transmission from animal to animal can occur. A presumptive diagnosis can be made on fecal cytology in which more than 3-4 spores per high power oil immersion field are observed (the spores have a safety pin appearance and are larger than most bacteria). Definitive diagnosis is by identification of enterotoxin which is currently done via a reverse passive latex agglutination assay. Clinicians should be aware that simply seeing spores on fecal cytology does not establish a definitive diagnosis (see JAVMA February 1, 1999). Stool is submitted to the lab for enterotoxin analysis. Laboratories that run the assay include Antech Diagnostics, Colorado State University, Cornell University, and the University of California Davis. Fecal samples that will be shipped off from the hospital directly to a laboratory should be sent on ice via overnight express. If a courier service will be picking up samples for transport to the laboratory it is sufficient to keep the sample refrigerated until pick-up. The minimum amount of stool that should be submitted is the size of a pea. Typically I submit samples in a red top tube, without serum separator. In animals with intermittent diarrhea the chances of a positive toxin finding are greater when abnormal rather than a normal stool is examined. A negative result does not definitively rule-out CPE.
Treatment

Several antibacterial drugs are effective in controlling CPE. Acute cases often respond well to amoxicillin (10 mg/lb BID) or metronidazole (5-10 mg/lb BID) for 7-28 days. Many clinicians have likely treated CPE with these medications empirically without knowing what they were treating. Chronic cases tend to respond best to tylosin powder. The recommended dose is: Animals greater than 50 pounds ¼ tsp BID, 26-50 lb 1/8 tsp BID, 11-25 lb 1/12 tsp BID, and less than 10 lb 1/16 tsp BID (a "pinch"). Cats definitely do not accept the powder well at all, even when it is mixed in very tasty foods. It is best to have the powder reconstituted to capsule form for administration to cats. The medication is very safe. Some animals require treatment for several to many months (3-12 or more). Over time the dose may in some cases be successfully reduced to SID and then every other day dosage (after several months or more on a BID schedule). Dietary fiber supplementation may also help control CPE. Probable mechanisms include decreased C. perfringens fecal concentration, lower colonic pH which prevents sporulation, and increased concentrations of SCFA.
Follow-up testing at 3-6 months can be done to determine if toxin persists. It is best to continue treatment if the test remains positive, even if there is no diarrhea. Once daily to every other day tylosin in conjunction with dietary fiber supplementation are used in chronic cases.
 

graybird

New member
Thank you, Deb, I know I ran across that article in my early searching but had forgotten about it. I've forwarded it to my vet and am crossing my fingers the Tylosin might work.
Mary
 

Thule's Mom

New member
I am too! I know how AWFUL chronic diarrehea is... on the poor dog and on you. I slept for weeks on the couch just so I could be ready when Thule needed to go.... I have faith that the Tylosin powder will work. It worked on the first dose with Thule. I justed added to her food, I had to make the food tasty because the powder is bitter. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you!
 

Murphy

New member
Thanks, Victoria, I'm familiar with your issues with Beau and have been glad to see them resolving. I have been giving her "IFlora" probiotic for the last ten days or so, but didn't see a difference. I've started her back on TOTW Bison, rather than the Orijen -- I thought as well that the Orijen might be too rich. I can't get Acana except online. What kind of fish did you feed?

Murphy had loose stools with the Orijen but does great on Acana. Hope this gets resolved soon for you and your baby.
 

Ivoryudx

New member
Not all foods are created equal for all dogs. If she was doing well on Proplan, why not stay with it? I know we all think we're doing better for our dogs by putting them on what we deem as 'higher quality' food, but sometimes you have do what works for your particular dog, no matter what it is.

I hope Sophie gets better soon, whatever it is!
 

graybird

New member
Thanks for all the good suggestions. I forwarded Deb's article to my vet, which probably made her gnash her teeth (too bad :lol:). She emailed back that she's investigating recent results with the Tylosin to make sure there aren't reports of clostridia resistant to it.

I also read a couple of reports that recommended a high-fiber diet, as apparently the soluble fiber increases the acidity in the gut, making it more inhospitable to sporulation of the clostridia bacteria. Any thoughts there? Most recommended just adding Metamucil to the existing food, rather than doing one of the Science Diet things. Would I have Explode-A-Butt?

I thought about putting her back on the Proplan; her breeder feeds it and I know of a couple more breeders in my area that do too. I'll be the first to confess I'm a food snob :whistling:, and I could hardly wait to put her on Orijen, with the ultimate goal to feed raw. I was hesitant to go back to the Proplan, however, because her coat feels brittle and dry, though I wasn't sure if it was her food or the shampoo the breeder was using. But maybe the Proplan with some supplements would work...thanks. Sometimes my head just starts spinning and I can't see straight.:crazy:
 

Thule's Mom

New member
for soluble fiber, I love to use sweet potato (vegetables are a good source of soluble fiber), and Thule loves it. I do know this about tylosin powder, it is inexpensive, she could give you some to try, it's not THAT big of a deal. (in my opinion, of course!!) What I've read, there are no negative side affects. What you're going thru, it cannot hurt to try it..... Been hanging out here all day, hoping for some good news!

Oh yes, I should add pumpkin is an excellent source and dogs seem to love that too.
 
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graybird

New member
Sweet potato and pumpkin sound a heck of a lot better than Metamucil, in my book, and I've been stockpiling pumpkin anyway for use on our gassy mutt. What did you do with the food to counteract the bitterness of the Tylosin, Deb?
 
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Thule's Mom

New member
Trial and error until she at it..... Sweet potato, mixed with pork roast, or chicken, and rice, if I remember right, but I wasn't feeding orijen then .... I think now, I'd just use the sweet potato mixed with orijen. Anything she normally likes. I bet she'll like sweet potato.... Thule adores it, fresh or dried! I kept her on sweet potato for a long time. Once I put her on Orijen, I didn't add any sweet potato and she has had perfect poos! Before christmas, she had an ear infection and vet gave me the dreaded antibiotics and of course, immedately gave her the 'runs'. I put her back on sweet potato, and pumpkin too, but those darned anti biotics always serve her the same. All's well again now.
 
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victoria1140

Active member
sweet potato is great for adding extra fibre, I know my vets reccomended low protein,high fibre diets for Beau but they just never helped him.Obviously now he is on high protein instead.I know the Acana has also worked wonders for my friends Bassett hound that has suffered extreme stomach trouble as well.

Do you have any game hunters near you as rabbit is a great protein source. We used to feed Beau any white fish plus a can of tuna occasionally to supplement his diet, but most fish would probably be ok.

Even now we boil up bones and add the stock to his food or use as a substitute if he is having a bad day. Keep perservering as it can take time to resolve problems, dont let the vets push you into a direction you aren't keen on as even our specialists kept pushing pills at us. Do you have a good holistic vet near you
 

victoria1140

Active member
another thing I forgot to say is that clostridium is probably a heat resistant toxin so make sure all her bowls and bedding are washed in really hot water
 

graybird

New member
Hm, all good points to think about, thank you. I should hear from the vet tomorrow or the next day. In the mean time her bowl's going in the dishwasher!

I'll confess the whole food thing has me really spinning. I don't know whether to continue cooking for her and add new foods, with the goal of eventually going raw, or whether to just go back to kibble when she's ready -- and then there's the "which kibble" issue. I would have to get Acana online, with the accompanying supply problems, though I can get Orijen locally. I'd have to hold my nose to go back to Proplan, though she apparently did well on it.

I did sneak a little sweet potato in today, and nothing bad has happened yet. I'm afraid to switch protein sources while she's still loosie-goosie, for fear of making it worse, though I am a little worried that chicken just might not agree with her (anyone want 18 cooked chicken breasts? ):uglyhammer:
 

Thule's Mom

New member
We're her for you! And yes, I wouldn't change much right now, just till you get her tummie settled. Keep posting!
 

victoria1140

Active member
if you decided to switch her from chicken to fish it shouldnt be a problem, if shes still loose then at least you know it wasnt the chicken and adding sweet potato in gradually shouldnt cause too many problems.

There are some good deals online some with free shipping online and its how we have to order Beaus Orijen as nowhere here stocks it. It is one of the best kept secrets in the uk though we dont seem to have the supply problems that you guys do but thats probably because we dont have such a demand for it yet.

Fingers crossed your vet comes back to you soon

I would also bleach and wash all her bedding in really hot water so you know that cant reinfect her as well as it turns into spores that can attach themselves to things and cause problems later on. Any areas she frequents regularly give a thorough clean , changing cloths regularly and also boil wash these cloths afterwards, also bleach and clean the areas she goes poop and pee as well. I know its a lot of hard work initially but once done then hopefully it will help guard against any reinfections. Think of it as an early spring clean
 
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graybird

New member
Improvement!

:groovy: Man oh man, two days of bee-yoo-tiful poops! The sweet potato really helped, I surmise that she was too short on fiber. Whooey!

The vet, after insinuating that my breeder had "gotten rid of her" because she had preexisting GI issues :mad:, has finally put her on Tylosin in addition to the Metronidazole. There's a local compounding vet pharmacy that puts the Tylosin powder into a flavored suspension...your choice of chicken, salmon, tuna or bacon! Sophie is accepting it fairly well.

Newf.Net rules! Thank you, one and all! Now I just need to figure out what to feed her once she's over this unpleasantness. I'd love to go raw, eventually, but think it's unwise to contemplate that for several months.
 

Thule's Mom

New member
Awesome! Awesome! Awwwwwwsome! I'm thrilled for you both.... only a dog lover would know the thrill of a 'perfect poop'!! Yay!
 
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