What should a breeder do

[lotus]

Afte reading Millie"s post and hearing of hip/ elbow problems in other dogs...some from reputable breeders...what would the ideal solution in these types of situations for a breeder to do when he/she gets the call..."my dog has dysplasia?"
What should they the breeder do that would make the pup parent happy and preserve their well built reputations?
What if the problem doesnt come up til after you loved the dog for over a year....what if the contract says one year guarentee but no guarantee against genetic issues? Can you guarantee AGAINST displasia?? I'm not talking about avoidable problems from poor breeding practices.
Who would want a new dog after a year of loving it BUT what should the owner expect from the breeder and what should a breeder do? Reasonable
What if the breeder replaces the dog with a pup...what happens to the replaced dog?
i'm referring to reputable breeder and responsible dog owner...
i could be wrong so correct me if i am but if you breed long enough, something like this will happen to all breeders..do yu offer to pay a portion of the surgery? What if the parent doesnt want a replacement dog.

How is an issue like this resolved with both parties satisfied..if that is at all possible. What is a breeder makes a suggestion and the owner isnt satisfied...cant that person damage your reputation out of vengence.
If your an a-hole breeder then you deserve what you get but if your a reputable breeder who has worked long and hard... who loves and cares for the breed.. an a-hole parent can do major damages in this age of social networking. Thoughts

 

[Jeannie]

I will say this about Chase. When I researched her family history of hip scores on OFA I knew she would not have excellent hips as most of her ancestors had good and a few fair. I assumed she would most likely have good hips.

I was wrong, she has hips that wouldn't get a 'fair' according to Dr Davis, who took the x-rays. Was I upset? Yes but it was nothing the breeder could help. Most contracts only guarantee against crippling HD.

My Chase is happy, as healthy as can be. I have not told her how her hips are and she doesn't know. I do all I can to help her - glucosamine and things.

Another time I had gotten a puppy that at 17 weeks had SAS. The breeder was very helpful, paid for a doppler of her heart and offered my money back or replacement puppy. It was my choice to keep or return the pup. After talking with the breeder he knew Chase's breeder just had a litter of pups and referred me there as they had no puppies available or planned breedings. I wanted a pup from a certain breeding of his and Chase's dad was a brother to this pup's mother. Different litters, same breeding.

Other breeders I talked to about Adam said they would have replaced the pup and given me a choice to keep or return him.

I guess each breeder is different.

 

[Milliejb]

I can only talk from personal experience. For me, I would never expect money back for Millie. I would never want a replacement pup either. But I was hoping, that since my breeder prided herself of knowledge of the breed, when I purchased Millie, that she would be willing to offer some guidance. I sent her x-rays and she "never got around to looking at them" She also told me that if it was indeed cruciates, that was my fault because they "aren't inherited, but rather the incompetence of a negligent owner". (that phrase is enough to start a whole new thread. LOL) Those who went to OC, MD know that Millie didn't climb a stair til about 5 months old. I have the chiropractor bill to prove it! lol Sorry, I was deterred by venting again!! lol
Anyway, I understand as a breeder it must be frustrating that some of the bad ones ruin it for the good ones. But without sounding harsh, that’s the way the world works. I taught for years and left teaching because the bad ones ruin it for us good ones. Its sad really.
So once again my tangent could have been answered in 2 simple words,… compassion and support. That’s all I expected. But that’s why I have my Newf friends J

 

[lotus]

I can only talk from personal experience. For me, I would never expect money back for Millie. I would never want a replacement pup either. But I was hoping, that since my breeder prided herself of knowledge of the breed, when I purchased Millie, that she would be willing to offer some guidance. I sent her x-rays and she "never got around to looking at them" She also told me that if it was indeed cruciates, that was my fault because they "aren't inherited, but rather the incompetence of a negligent owner". (that phrase is enough to start a whole new thread. LOL) Those who went to OC, MD know that Millie didn't climb a stair til about 5 months old. I have the chiropractor bill to prove it! lol Sorry, I was deterred by venting again!! lol
Anyway, I understand as a breeder it must be frustrating that some of the bad ones ruin it for the good ones. But without sounding harsh, that’s the way the world works. I taught for years and left teaching because the bad ones ruin it for us good ones. Its sad really.
So once again my tangent could have been answered in 2 simple words,… compassion and support. That’s all I expected. But that’s why I have my Newf friends J

What you were asking for was completely reasonable...i dont understand why one would risk years of hard work by not listening to a reasonable request. Its like the Dr. who developes poor bedside manners after practicing for so long....time to retire.

 

[hemingway]

I think a breeder should give the option to replace the dog or reimburse the total paid for the dog. since i would never return or replace hemingway, we'll now spend the next decade (hopefully) paying for pain killers, joint supplements, etc...after having already paid $3500 for his surgery. Some things are clearly the owner's responsibility. Other things, at least if you ask me, are the breeder's responsibility. One of those being puppies without hereditary joint diseases. And if you sell one, and by chance it ends up with dysplasia...make it right.

 

[Pam G]

.I think a breeder should give the option to replace the dog or reimburse the total paid for the dog. since i would never return or replace hemingway, we'll now spend the next decade (hopefully) paying for pain killers, joint supplements, etc...after having already paid $3500 for his surgery. Some things are clearly the owner's responsibility. Other things, at least if you ask me, are the breeder's responsibility. One of those being puppies without hereditary joint diseases. And if you sell one, and by chance it ends up with dysplasia...make it right.

Like Hemmingway, Our 3 yr old boy Cash was diagnosed with bilateral Elbow displasia at 7 mths. He had a very rough start but now is getting around ok..but will never be a "normal" dog. He needs Nsaids to help him feel more comfortable if I take him out on walks etc. Our breeder was very concerned about him and refunded the purchase price.

 

[new_2_newf]

Thankfully, I've never been down that road. The minimum I would expect is sympathy and compassion that our dog (mine and the breeders) is not well. If there is a possibility that the issue may be genetic (dysplasia, SAS, etc) I would expect help (advice) on where to go and what to have done to verify the issue, and a very keen interest in the results of those tests (that speaks to an interest in the genetics they are producing). Depending on what's happening with the dog, I would also agree with Stacey, replacement puppy (valid option for some people, depends on what they want) or fairly close to full reimbursement. Yes, that is a monumental pain in the ass for the breeder, I get that, but I do know there are breeders out there that will stand behind their guarantees and do things like this.

Having said that...I also know there are some vets out there that will scream the sky is falling when it is not. You can bet your bottom dollar that your breeder knows that too, which is why I'd be looking for help in getting a potential problem diagnosed by someone my breeder trusted to know what they were looking at.

I basically want my breeder to give a damn.

 

[DAWNMERIE]

I've been toying with answering this thread myself and my thoughts are as follows:



I personally find this question difficult to answer cause all circumstances are different so the devil is always in the details. Bottom line is they are dogs, and when dogs became so over priced, I'll never know, maybe to keep them away from a loving home such as mine? But then again look at human adoption....

As for me and my feelings on the matter, I think what I want most from any breeder is some of the wealth of their experience and moral support for any and all things going on with my pups, cause after all I kinda feel they are now kin. I wanted to find someone who I felt was truthful and fourth coming with insight and information that might be helpful in raising my dogs. I personally didn't/don't expect any type of guarantee with life cause as far as I'm aware no one has that in life, your not even promised tomorrow.

I would never give my dog back either and would never expect my money back but to have the shared wealth of experience and knowledge is half the battle. It's like in today's world trying to find the right mechanic or the right Doctor....a very hard task these days no matter how much homework you do, still very difficult. Compassion, understand and support should be there, otherwise maybe it is time to retire.

Your right Jessica when you say the bad people have messed thing up for the good people, but that goes with everything in life, not just dogs.

 

[Jager's Mom]

Great questions! Look forward to hearing the thoughts of the breeders.

Bad thing....most of the breeders are probably at the Nationals in PA right now...and not checking NN.

Hopefully they will give their input/thoughts.

Afte reading Millie"s post and hearing of hip/ elbow problems in other dogs...some from reputable breeders...what would the ideal solution in these types of situations for a breeder to do when he/she gets the call..."my dog has dysplasia?"
What should they the breeder do that would make the pup parent happy and preserve their well built reputations?
What if the problem doesnt come up til after you loved the dog for over a year....what if the contract says one year guarentee but no guarantee against genetic issues? Can you guarantee AGAINST displasia?? I'm not talking about avoidable problems from poor breeding practices.
Who would want a new dog after a year of loving it BUT what should the owner expect from the breeder and what should a breeder do? Reasonable
What if the breeder replaces the dog with a pup...what happens to the replaced dog?
i'm referring to reputable breeder and responsible dog owner...
i could be wrong so correct me if i am but if you breed long enough, something like this will happen to all breeders..do yu offer to pay a portion of the surgery? What if the parent doesnt want a replacement dog.

How is an issue like this resolved with both parties satisfied..if that is at all possible. What is a breeder makes a suggestion and the owner isnt satisfied...cant that person damage your reputation out of vengence.
If your an a-hole breeder then you deserve what you get but if your a reputable breeder who has worked long and hard... who loves and cares for the breed.. an a-hole parent can do major damages in this age of social networking. Thoughts

 

[Jager's Mom]

I too find this question difficult to answer....

Aside from what the breeders should or shouldn't give or pay to a client.....

The one thing I would hope to hear from the breeders...Is that they DON'T breed dogs that won't "better" the breed. In other words, if they have a dog with HD, then they DO NOT breed that dog. Even if it came from two parents that were fine.

To me, it's all about "bettering" the breed. This is something I didn't understand before I bought my 2nd newf. I always thought... 1) I'm not going to breed 2) I'm not going to show Soooooo...my newf doesn't have to be perfect. Well, let me tell you after all of Bear's issues (3 eye surgeries, 1 hernia surgery, 2 TPLO's and 2 hip surgeries to come)... I now understand Breeding to Better the Breed!

I've been toying with answering this thread myself and my thoughts are as follows:



I personally find this question difficult to answer cause all circumstances are different so the devil is always in the details. Bottom line is they are dogs, and when dogs became so over priced, I'll never know, maybe to keep them away from a loving home such as mine? But then again look at human adoption....

As for me and my feelings on the matter, I think what I want most from any breeder is some of the wealth of their experience and moral support for any and all things going on with my pups, cause after all I kinda feel they are now kin. I wanted to find someone who I felt was truthful and fourth coming with insight and information that might be helpful in raising my dogs. I personally didn't/don't expect any type of guarantee with life cause as far as I'm aware no one has that in life, your not even promised tomorrow.

I would never give my dog back either and would never expect my money back but to have the shared wealth of experience and knowledge is half the battle. It's like in today's world trying to find the right mechanic or the right Doctor....a very hard task these days no matter how much homework you do, still very difficult. Compassion, understand and support should be there, otherwise maybe it is time to retire.

Your right Jessica when you say the bad people have messed thing up for the good people, but that goes with everything in life, not just dogs.



Stacey the word "product" was the only thing that rubbed me wrong. They are a life, not a commodity (no matter what the laws may say) and they are very special and until you've spent your life loving and caring for one of these special animals that touch your soul in ways you are yet to discover, you should refrain from using that word, it's offensive to some. And I know you love him but that word doesn't fit to describe him. (not meaning to start a fight, just saying)

 

[victoria1140]

In my lifetime we have only ever had two litters, both unplanned from rescue dogs.

In each case we always made sure we were available for questions from potential owners and have always been there for backup despite the fact that we always lost out financially on the pups.

I would never want a replacement pup as the ones we choose are the ones that we want for whatever reason and even in one pups case where it had a £2000 surgery at 4 months old we have never shied away from responsability for their lives which to us are infinitely precious .

I would expect a good breeder and I know some good and bad ones to always listen and to talk through issues. None of our dogs were ever got to breed from and as most of ours have had genetic issues and behavioural problems we work on them and would never pass that heartache to someone else.The good breeders I know always keep the bad puppies and have them treated to minimise their health issues and always try to find them a suitable pet home or keep them for the rest of their lives.

This may not always be financially viable but as one of my friends says she brought them into this world it wasn't their choice

 

[jane]

Like Hemmingway, Our 3 yr old boy Cash was diagnosed with bilateral Elbow displasia at 7 mths. He had a very rough start but now is getting around ok..but will never be a "normal" dog. He needs Nsaids to help him feel more comfortable if I take him out on walks etc. Our breeder was very concerned about him and refunded the purchase price.

I'm very impressed to hear that Pam!

 

[lotus]

thats good to know that there are those who refund on a 7mo and a 4 mo ...but what about the dog over the age of one... i remember reading about someone who had surgeries at 14 mo.
By 14 mo i would be totally in love with this dog...he/she is family at that point.....would a refund of full or partial be un reasonable?
For me personally i think a refund would unreasonable at this point...but the vets and breeder differ if dysplasia is genetic and or environmental....if it's a case of both is a refund expected. I would personally offer a quarter of the purchase price towards surgery but that'sd just me...BUT when does it end.. what about the call that comes 2,3 yrs down the road?

 

[Annetteb]

If there is a health guarantee ... wouldn't that be written out in the contract? We all know that no one can absolutely guarantees that there will not be issues with health. Does anyone have an example of what some puppy contracts have spelled out about what would be included in a guarantee and what would happen in case of issues that were included? If there is a good practice some are using, that may be good information for people to ask for when considering a breeder.

 

[hemingway]

dawnmarie,If Hemingway was just a product to me, I would have given him back to my breeder for a more perfect and healthy newfoundland. I didn't. He is the love of my life and you should know by now from all of my posts that my dog is not a commodity to me. Just because I used a metaphor to explain my opinion? Give me a break.

 

[hemingway]

Like Hemmingway, Our 3 yr old boy Cash was diagnosed with bilateral Elbow displasia at 7 mths. He had a very rough start but now is getting around ok..but will never be a "normal" dog. He needs Nsaids to help him feel more comfortable if I take him out on walks etc. Our breeder was very concerned about him and refunded the purchase price.

You're very lucky! Wish I could say the same.

 

[R Taft]

I can only speak from personal experiences...katy was supposed to be a show quality puppy and if you look at her baby puppy pictures she was cute and everyone said looked really good and promising...We all delved in her history, family and every generation we could. We checked all the health checks..they were all good except for on great-great grand parent who had a hip score of 3/2...All dogs were of average size except again a few generations back one dog from Finland was HUGE......
Anyway to cut a story short...katy grew into this gangly dog, we all thought this would pass, she just kept growing and growing.....She has Haw and none of her litter mates or parents have, she has a huge amount of neck skin ( don't know the proper name), she has HD 2/2 We scored her late until she stopped growing........She has the cruciate which is a bit of an argument as to wether genetic. Her Elbows and heart are fine. She is very butch in appearance, large to the extreme. And she has a short tail.
I have checked with the help of her Breeder all her living relatives, we have seen them and their scores, she is the only one........Except for one full sister of the Bitch, who also has the same hip score.
I am just taking it as bad luck in my case.....I know that the next puppy I ask for will be at the right price. I also know that when two beautiful show quality still papered boys came up, I was given a first option for free. My Breeder knew that returning Katy was NEVER an option. But I know that some people have returned young dogs, they needed a certain type of dog to show.
My Breeder has given us a lot of support....She offered for us to stay at her place when katy needed her Surgery, but we chose to go South instead of North ( Better Surgeon I thought). She checks in and was very worried with me when Katy was unwell.
I don't blame her.....I think it is just bad luck, we did everything by the book. But she is always at the end of the phone and very supportive.

That in my eyes is enough...We are dealing with life creatures, with a genetic pool that can just give us surprises that we do not expect or want. We used to breed horses and still do cattle, we are/were extremely careful, but still get thrown the unexpected too.

Sometimes I also feel for the Breeder, because some people do go into attack mode. And the one thing is that sometimes it can be environment with hips/elbows/ortho stuff.

I think a Breeder should try to be supportive, but it also depend on how the person who bought the dog is to the Breeder.

It is tough getting the perfectly healthy/conformation animal

 

[ajcooksey]

So far we have been very lucky with our breeder and she has been there for us. We do have health guarantees but like many of you we would never give back one of ours for a "better" quality puppy. We would just want compassion and advice from our breeder to help guide in the best direction to care for our dog. I think the knowledge and support piece would be the most important to me because these are our first newfs. So when faced with the care of hip or elbow displasia or any other abnormalities that could pop up in our future I would want her to help us to decide on the best course of treatment.
These amazing animals take up a big part of our hearts but when they need us we need to be able to turn to the right people to help us make the best decision for them. I hope that time never comes for us but if it does I hope that our breeder will be able to give us the advice and support that we will need.

 

[Acadia]

"those who went to OC, MD know that Millie didn't climb a stair til about 5 months old. I have the chiropractor bill to prove it!"

This is a little off the specific topic, but I am getting my puppy soon and want to make sure I don't do anything to cause her harm. I know she is not supposed to "run" or go for lengthy walks, and I am planning to carry her up and down the stairs as they are steep, but is that what newf owners are supposed to do anyways? Until what age? (I am moving in June to a house with more normal, carpeted stairs). Are there some other precautions I need to take because of their size and possible genetic issues? Thank you

http://acadiamynewf.blogspot.com/

 

[new_2_newf]

"those who went to OC, MD know that Millie didn't climb a stair til about 5 months old. I have the chiropractor bill to prove it!"

This is a little off the specific topic, but I am getting my puppy soon and want to make sure I don't do anything to cause her harm. I know she is not supposed to "run" or go for lengthy walks, and I am planning to carry her up and down the stairs as they are steep, but is that what newf owners are supposed to do anyways? Until what age? (I am moving in June to a house with more normal, carpeted stairs). Are there some other precautions I need to take because of their size and possible genetic issues? Thank you

http://acadiamynewf.blogspot.com/

the most important thing about stairs once they are big enough (you'll probably only be able to carry her for a few months) is that they take them slow and easy..I leash my fosters and body block them when they are coming down so they don't go too fast and slip. Also watch slippery floors like tile and hardwood, it's easy for those growing joints to slip and pull. And don't be afraid to let your baby play in a safe setting, like outside on the grass. She'll play, run a little and 'romp' on a forgiving surface, just watch that she doesn't got totally bananas. she'll have little bursts and that's ok. Also take it easy with any jumping...she'll need help getting in and out of the car or anything else much taller than half of her height. Keep walks short and increase as she gets older. a 7 min 'walk' in the back yard on a leash is sufficient (I think the rule is 1 min per week of age?). Also very important to keep her isolated until her puppy shots are complete and your vet is satisfied that she's got her immunity to things like parvo. after that, enjoy socialization Just mind she plays gently with other dogs