The Perfect Stud

[RivNewf]

Yes, I realize there's no such thing, a fact that's becoming frustratingly clear as I search for a prospect to mate with my Landseer, Bella. She had her first litter a year ago and I plan to breed her again in her upcoming heat. My hope is to produce a female Landseer which I can show and eventually breed. While Bella produced some decent pups with my stud, I can see definite room for improvement, particularly in head size, and topline and, because both she and my stud are brown recessive, they produced a "brownseer", something I hope to avoid in the future. I'm looking at several promising studs but it seems some sort of compromise is inevitable in each prospect. For example:

A black/Landseer recessive stud looks excellent with great lines, a good pedigree and great health clearances but is 33" tall. Will this result in leggy pups, something that can be a problem in Landseers anyway? Bella is fairly stocky and about 26" tall, 115 lbs. This stud also has the same parents as Bella's maternal great-grandparents, from back in the Watchbear and Kloofbear lines, which is where I think her strengths derive from. I think this cross could help further strengthen my foundation but is the height a problem?

A champion Landseer stud with beautiful pedigree, a great head, topline and temperament but is a cystinuria carrier with otherwise good clearances. Bella is C-clear but comes from 2 Landseer parents. While producing Landseers is my goal, is it a mistake to cross yet again with a Landseer and risk loss of typiness? This stud is close enough that fresh semen could be used while all the rest would probably require shipped, fresh-chilled. This is an attractive advantage.

Anther well known kennel has a Ch. black/LR stud with a strong Ch.-laced pedigree and good health clearances, but according to the breeder, is "a little short" but she doesn't know his height!? That gives me pause. But maybe slightly reduced height would counter the tendency for Landseers to become leggy?

The last is a black/LR Ch.-pointed stud from a lesser known Southern kennel but with a strong international pedigree, good clearances and a history of producing Ch. offspring. It does have some brown 3 generations back

If anyone with experience in stud evaluation has any thoughts or warnings to share, I would love to hear them. My priorities are health, temperament, and type and my goal is to produce a show-quality Landseer female with those qualities.

Thanks for taking the time to read!
Gordon

 

[Windancer]

#1`..stay away from the brown recessive..
#2 I wouldn't worry about the Cyst Carrier if all else is good
#3 Is the landseer stud out of black ? Is the bone good? You COULD do all right, but it is just a matter of trying the cross. Given the choices you gave.
Just IMHO

 

[BluwaterNewfs]

You don't mention anything about your girl except that she is landseer, brown recessive and cystinuria clear. With out knowing what your girl is like, one can not, IMO, really give a opinion on which male would be appropriate for your girl. I certainly would stay away from any male having brown recessive. you need to know what your girl needs to improve, what the male has to offer in those department and what he needs improvement on, does your girl compliment that, and you need to look at the pedigrees.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

I would not choose the boy with recessive brown or you could end up with brown again. Since your girl is just breed standard for height, the boy that was described as "short" might not work, but you have to clarify that if he is short in height as they could mean short in back too. If your girl is cystenuria clear, then you are ok with the carrier.
You do have to do more research into the pedigrees but you should be able to narrow it down a bit.

 

[RivNewf]

Thanks for the helpful feedback. The unanimous advice to avoid the brown recessive is especially useful. When considering an otherwise outstanding prospect, it's tempting to overlook a single flaw 3 generations back, but in reviewing my own 2 dogs pedigrees, that's exactly where the brown crept in: a single heir on each side 3 gens. back. So I feel comfortable crossing that one off my list.

Regarding Windancer's reply, the landseer prospect is heavy boned and his sire is an exceptional black also with good bone. I see your point that at some point you just have to throw the Mendelian dice.

Several folks have echoed the opinions here that there's little need to worry about breeding to a cystinuria carrier so maybe I should put that concern aside. I can see that added vigilance will be required down the road though for pups that might eventually be bred.

Regarding BlueWaterNewfs questions about my girl: I see her strengths being 1)her health - OFA hips good, elbows and heart normal and otherwise healthy and active; 2) temperament - loving, loyal and gentle just as a Newfie should be 3) type - while I don't have experience in conformation, she does seem to fit the breed standard well; 4) she loves the water! I know I'll find a porpoise in her pedigree if I go back far enough.

Her weaknesses that I would like to improve upon are 1)her head is a bit small; 2) her topline could be straighter; and 3) the brown recessive gene she carries. All of the males I'm considering could compliment these weaknesses (except the one possibly brown recessive). And probably lots more that a more experienced breeder could see.

Regarding pedigree research - I've spent hours poring over pedigrees, both those provided by the breeders as well as AKC research peds. I have looked at colors, titles, OFA and CHIC data, breeders web sites when they have them. Is there more I can be doing? To me this is one of the most fascinating aspects of breeding.

Thanks again for everyone's help.

Gordon

 

[Sun Valley]

Hi Gordon,

I have found through the years that breeding Landseer's is an art in it self... Some Landseer's lines just don't mesh together well with certain black dogs/pedigree's. When I was breeding Landseer's I had two very strong lines...(sorry the rules disallow me mentioning them), but when breeding a Landseer from one very dominate line to another very dominate black line, it would either work great or it would disastrous and I wouldn't get what I had hoped for.

I prefer to linebreed on a dog that has health and type.Is that possible with a dog in your girls pedigree?
I would probably stick to breeding her to a dominate black male, then take one of those offspring back into a Landseer line.

Lou Ann

 

[BluwaterNewfs]

Regarding BlueWaterNewfs questions about my girl: I see her strengths being 1)her health - OFA hips good, elbows and heart normal and otherwise healthy and active; 2) temperament - loving, loyal and gentle just as a Newfie should be 3) type - while I don't have experience in conformation, she does seem to fit the breed standard well; 4) she loves the water! I know I'll find a porpoise in her pedigree if I go back far enough.

Her weaknesses that I would like to improve upon are 1)her head is a bit small; 2) her topline could be straighter; and 3) the brown recessive gene she carries. All of the males I'm considering could compliment these weaknesses (except the one possibly brown recessive). And probably lots more that a more experienced breeder could see.

Regarding pedigree research - I've spent hours poring over pedigrees, both those provided by the breeders as well as AKC research peds. I have looked at colors, titles, OFA and CHIC data, breeders web sites when they have them. Is there more I can be doing? To me this is one of the most fascinating aspects of breeding.

Her conformation & type are a very important part of this process. How is her structure - besides her topline & head? length of neck, length of back, her proportions. her stance. How is her movement? What does her gaitlook like coming & going? from the side? Does she toe in or out, is she close in the rear? cow hocked? bow legged? This is just some of it. You need to look at all the parts of the package. Has she ever been evaluated by some one knowledgable in the breed?

You also need to look at all these thing when looking at the male.

While her love of the water is admirable, that is something that is not terribly important in this process. The brown recessive is not something you can improve on - it is something you just need to be aware of, I would not breed her to another dog that carries it. Her offspring could possibly carry it too.

Also, while looking at the pedigrees is nice thing, you need to kow what you are looking at, look at relationships with a given dog's pedigree and how it realtes to your dog's pedigree. What is close or too close? Do you have some with knowledgable to help with this process?

 

[BoundlessNewfs]

I'm not a breeder, but wonder why anyone would breed an animal that is a cystinuria carrier? I understand that the animal may be practically perfect in every other aspect...but why continue to pass that particular gene down the line? I would do everything in my power to produce only healthy pups...and that would include eliminating cystinuria carriers from the breeding pool. JMHO.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

I'm not a breeder, but wonder why anyone would breed an animal that is a cystinuria carrier?

Cystenuria is a recessive gene, so it would take both parents that were carriers to produce a positive pup. Luckily this gene can easily be tested for with a cheek swab, that be done by the breeder, or blood test. If a pup has parents that are cystenuria clear, then the pup would be listed as "cystenuria clear by parentage". That is why a responsible breeder would list their dog as a "carrier" so someone considering that dog for their breeding program would know not to use that dog if their dog was also a carrier.

 

[wrknnwf]

Patti McD has an interesting story about cystenuria. Hopefully, she will chime in here. Due to her account, I had my dogs DNA'd for it even if they were cleared by parentage. Of course, my dogs didn't end up contributing to the gene pool, but that was a later decision. This is SUCH simple test and can easily be done by anyone at home.

 

[guysndolls]

I'm not a breeder, but wonder why anyone would breed an animal that is a cystinuria carrier? I understand that the animal may be practically perfect in every other aspect...but why continue to pass that particular gene down the line? I would do everything in my power to produce only healthy pups...and that would include eliminating cystinuria carriers from the breeding pool. JMHO.

Because a dog that carries the cystinuria gene is still a healthy dog, and if bred to a non-carrier will produce only (cystinuria) healthy pups, even if some are carriers.

Important to remember that cystinuria is the only test we have SO FAR.
Important to remember that all Newfs carry the genes for many problems. I do not believe there is a single Newf that does not carry a gene for some health problem.
A dog that might be a cystinuria carrier might also come from a line that has an extremely low rate of other diseases..... a line that rarely if ever produces bloat or cruciate disease or man oher problems.
Breeding is a juggling act.... you throw a large number of balls in the air and are trying to keep them all up there, praying none of them will hit the ground. By having a test for cystinuria, you can actually put that "ball" on the side, because you have as close to a guarantee as you can get with regards to not producing this disease.

Patti
http://www.councilcupnewfs.com

 

[Ginny]

I'm not a breeder, but wonder why anyone would breed an animal that is a cystinuria carrier? I understand that the animal may be practically perfect in every other aspect...but why continue to pass that particular gene down the line? I would do everything in my power to produce only healthy pups...and that would include eliminating cystinuria carriers from the breeding pool. JMHO.

Since cystinuria "affecteds" are easy to avoid producing via test results, I don't see a need to remove all carriers from breeding stock. Heck, our gene pool is small enough.

I have heard of dogs cleared by parentage, coming up carriers so it's best to DNA test all who may be bred.

 

[guysndolls]

Patti McD has an interesting story about cystenuria. Hopefully, she will chime in here. Due to her account, I had my dogs DNA'd for it even if they were cleared by parentage. Of course, my dogs didn't end up contributing to the gene pool, but that was a later decision. This is SUCH simple test and can easily be done by anyone at home.

Long story short: you have to guard against human error. This is why both NCA and OFA have requirements/restrictions for "Cleared by Parentage) : 1) Everyone must be DNA'd for parentage (not the DNA for research we are always talking about). This is to make 100% certain the dog being "cleared by parentage) is actually the offspring of those two parents.
2) The parents must have been cleared by direct testing (not by parentage).

My story was a girl we planned on being bred to a carrier. Her test came back clear (her father was a carrier). At the last minute, we heard a dog from a previous litter she had produced was a carrier..... which was IMPOSSIBLE if she were clear. We had to have her retested (as well as everyone else involved), and she was actually a carrier.

There was no problem with the test itself... but all it takes is for one secretary to be typing in hundreds of forms and accidentally type in the wrong rating on one, or for some lab tech to mix up two samples. By periodically checking every other generation, you can hopefully catch to make sure no errors were made.

We were lucky - we found out before the breeding was done and made a diferent plan. I know there was one other breeder who had a similar problem and was not as lucky, and produced puppies affected with the disease.

This type of situation will be blessedly rare, but it will always occur when dealing with humans and human error, so the policy of OFA and NCA is a conservative one to try to address that possibility.

Patti
http://www.councilcupnewfs.com

 

[guysndolls]

I'm not a breeder, but wonder why anyone would breed an animal that is a cystinuria carrier? I understand that the animal may be practically perfect in every other aspect...but why continue to pass that particular gene down the line? I would do everything in my power to produce only healthy pups...and that would include eliminating cystinuria carriers from the breeding pool. JMHO.

Your question also touches on a problem we will probably see grow in the coming years..... a problem that concerns me greatly... but I see no solution to it.

Dog breeding, GREAT dog breeding programs, are rarely accomplished by people who own 1 or 2 or 3 dogs.

First of all, with that limited number of dogs, you are battling some pretty serious odds. You have a puppy, you have to hope it turns out healthy, turns out to have the right conformation, turns out to have the right temperament, etc..... and after all of that, you have to not only hope it is able to reproduce, you have to hope she reproduces good offspring. I have afriend who wanted to be a breeder for close to 15 years..... wait a long time for the "right" puppy, then wait to grow it up.... and first one developed a problem and was eliminating from breeding, another was a great possibility but never reproduced, etc. Took her 15 years to finally have a litter. You probably cannot have a successful breeding "program" when battling those type of odds.

People who only have one or two or three dogs are MUCH LESS LIKELY to remove a dog with faults from their breeding "program" because they don't have anything to fall back on. Their choices are limited, and I am sure it takes someone with steely resolution too make those choices and give up their dreams and plans. These are the people who are more likely to breed dogs of "pet quality" or dogs with a fault.

Years ago the big breeding programs were places where you would find a minimum of 20 breeding dogs. Dogs of all ages .... puppies being "grown out" to see how they turned out.. and if they didn't turn out, they were placed in homes. Its easier to make that "cut" when you have a lot of dogs and have resources and alternate plans to fall back on. If you only have 2 dogs, you are "cutting" 50% of your breeding program... a tough decision.. and many people will not make the decision that is best for "improving the breed" when faced with that choice. As more and more breeding programs become small, and with the restrictions I mentioned, you will no doubt see an overall reduction in the quality of dogs being produced across the board.

The "bigger" breeding programs are disappearing. Occasionally you will see a new one start up (and last!).... but this is rare. Lots of reasons.. for one thing its incredibly hard work, and incredibly expensive... and incredibly heartbreaking... and bigger kennels are "tarred with the same brush" as the puppy mills, simply because of their numbers... and have to face the same prejudices and laws and requirements that large commercial kennels must comply with.

I've spent a lot of time looking at Newf Tide, and thinking about why things happen certain ways, why certain kennels were more successful, etc. I saw that many of the most successful kennels were those that had a lot of CHOICES. It was not the end of the world if some of their choices did not work out.

In addition, those large kennels/breeding programs, with larger numbers of "choices" could do many "test breedings".... seeing which different combinations worked best. Even with potential stud dogs... those kennels could breed a young male 10 different ways and find out what he was "dominant for".. whether a certain "look" or even a certain problem or fault. By the time the "rest of us" got to using him, that breeder had a really good idea of how that dog should best be bred. So the existence of those large kennels and breeding programs was also an ASSET for the rest of the breeding community who had smaller programs... we could take advantage of the work they were doing.

When I began breeding, there were probably a dozen of those large breeding programs in my region. Today..... sigh..... many have died, or retired, or downsized........ and who has really taken their place?

The loss of many of these programs nationwide is the reason (JMO) we are seeing a decline in the quality of Newfs being shown and bred today. And I think this decline will continue.. because I don't see how it will be able to turn around.

I fear we will someday be looking back at something like a "Golden Age" of breeding and Newf quality..... sigh...... unless something happens to change things in the near future (because we will slowly lose our window of opportunity to take advantage of all of the work that was done previously).

Just my thoughts.....
Patti
http://www.councilcupnewfs.com

 

[RivNewf]

Hi Gordon,

I prefer to linebreed on a dog that has health and type.Is that possible with a dog in your girls pedigree?
I would probably stick to breeding her to a dominate black male, then take one of those offspring back into a Landseer line.

Lou Ann

Thanks for the tips Lou Ann. The second dog mentioned in my original posting is black/landseer recessive and is from the same line as my girl, tracing back to the most notable dog I've found in Bellas tree (so far): Ch. Seal Cove's Espen til Kloofbear. The drawback is that the male is 33" tall and I worry about that leading to lighter boned pups.

Gordon

 

[RivNewf]

Her conformation & type are a very important part of this process. How is her structure - besides her topline & head? length of neck, length of back, her proportions. her stance. How is her movement? What does her gaitlook like coming & going? from the side? Does she toe in or out, is she close in the rear? cow hocked? bow legged? This is just some of it. You need to look at all the parts of the package. Has she ever been evaluated by some one knowledgable in the breed?

You also need to look at all these thing when looking at the male.

While her love of the water is admirable, that is something that is not terribly important in this process. The brown recessive is not something you can improve on - it is something you just need to be aware of, I would not breed her to another dog that carries it. Her offspring could possibly carry it too.

Also, while looking at the pedigrees is nice thing, you need to kow what you are looking at, look at relationships with a given dog's pedigree and how it realtes to your dog's pedigree. What is close or too close? Do you have some with knowledgable to help with this process?

Thanks Joan. This is the sort of specific information I was looking for. One hurdle I face is my isolated location. My nearest regional specialty club is 6 hours away and there are no reputable Newf breeders with 150 miles. I have gotten some assistance from a couple of breeders but, to answer your question, I have not had Bella evaluated by someone knowledgable, but I do hope to find a mentor to assist me. This board is a great help but of course does not substitute for a face to face (tongue to face?) evaluation.

Regarding love of water, would this not be an important asset to someone involved in water tests or water rescue? I see a notable difference in how my 3 Newfs respond to water so I'm sure there must be some genetic link there.

Gordon

 

[RivNewf]

Dog breeding, GREAT dog breeding programs, are rarely accomplished by people who own 1 or 2 or 3 dogs.

Just my thoughts.....
Patti
http://www.councilcupnewfs.com

Interesting. So did most of those larger breeders start out by initially acquiring a large number of dogs or did they begin with 2 or 3 or 4 and work their way up? Did they start with puppies and hope for the best or with proven adults, or some combination of the 2? Even those historically important breeders were neophytes themselves at a point. How did they make that initial leap into successful breeding? I've read the Kennel Histories on NCA. Are there other sources of information about Newf kennel history?

Gordon

 

[guysndolls]

Interesting. So did most of those larger breeders start out by initially acquiring a large number of dogs or did they begin with 2 or 3 or 4 and work their way up? Did they start with puppies and hope for the best or with proven adults, or some combination of the 2? Even those historically important breeders were neophytes themselves at a point. How did they make that initial leap into successful breeding? I've read the Kennel Histories on NCA. Are there other sources of information about Newf kennel history?

Gordon

Hi Gordon,
I think each one started along a variety of paths. There was no "recipe" that I could find......
Most of what I learned is by reading Newf Tides & books, by asking questions of the old timers.
I am not saying the many many smaller breeders have not contributed greatly to our breed, and continue to do so.....quite the opposite.... but the loss of the large breeding programs is (JMO) something that can have (and JMO is already having) a huge effect on the quality of dogs in our breed.

BTW - on your original question...... I have never had a lot of success as a Landseer breeder.. so am not the best person to give advice... but the advice I was given from people who were successful was: "forget about the color. Just breed the dog as if it were a black, use the same criteria".

Good luck to you!!!
Patti
http://www.councilcupnewfs.com

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

My nearest regional specialty club is 6 hours away and there are no reputable Newf breeders with 150 miles. I have gotten some assistance from a couple of breeders but, to answer your question, I have not had Bella evaluated by someone knowledgable, but I do hope to find a mentor to assist me.
Gordon

That is why showing your dog is important. It is a good way to get to know more established breeders and learn from them and possibly find a mentor. In addition, your entry will be evaluated by different judges in each show, and gives you the opportunity to observe your dog in the ring and see how she compares with the others.

 

[Sun Valley]

That is why showing your dog is important. It is a good way to get to know more established breeders and learn from them and possibly find a mentor. In addition, your entry will be evaluated by different judges in each show, and gives you the opportunity to observe your dog in the ring and see how she compares with the others.

Lynn,

I agree with you 100%. As I mentioned in an earlier post, many back yard breeders and mills say they breed to the standard, but clearly they don't even know what the Newf standard is by looking at what their breeding. Showing your dogs is one way to compare what you have and what your breeding.

Gordon..not sure if you belong to the NCA, if not you may want to consider joining? On the NCA web sight there is a list of NCA breed mentors that I'm sure would be willing to help you.

Lou Ann