The Perfect Stud

[BluwaterNewfs]

Regarding love of water, would this not be an important asset to someone involved in water tests or water rescue? I see a notable difference in how my 3 Newfs respond to water so I'm sure there must be some genetic link there.

I friend of mine has a 1/2 sister to one of my girls. Their mother was the youngest newf to earn a VN at the age of 17 months. She was a good swimmer. My girl loves the water and is a wonderful swimmer. Her 1/2 sister is the most awful swimmer. Both had sires that have VNs are were good swimmers.

I have another friend who had littermates, one loves the water and the tolerates it.

So I wonder about the genetic link when it comes to water work.

 

[janices]

There's a component that say's whether or not a dog lives up to true genetic potential depends largely upon the environment to which it's exposed.

In bird dogs hunting behavior involves multiple behavior traits such as bird finding, eagerness, cooperation, speed, and style. The hunting ability is hereditary, identifying and measuring the genetic components in order to develop reliable selection criteria has presented problems. A consideration in the inheritance of hunting behavior is the role of the environment. The interaction between dog and trainer. A skilled trainer can develop a moderately talented dog into a top performer, and training errors can ruin the most talented of dogs.

Scott and Fuller reported that the ability to respond positively to training is highly individual and dependent on the trainining techniques used. The dog's emotional reaction proved important in training, either helping or inhibiting learning in all situations. The breeds studied by Scott and Fuller showed similar problem-solving ability provided that they were well motivated and fear was eliminated.

So, a litter in a bell curve with genetic ability assuming there for water work but some may have inherited more components than others of the genetic ability. Some not exposed to water early and others exposed to water early, adding in environmental influences on training techniques and socialization. I have a tendency to be a believer in puppy imprinting. I know you seem to expose your newfs to water early like I do while you may have others go other directions in training or showing early and come back to water later so the environmental influences end up being different and an ability may not develop out to it's full potential.

 

[BluwaterNewfs]

I happen to know all 4 dogs were all exposed to the water at young ages and were started at water training exercises their fist summers. Yes, exposure and imprinting can and does account for some of their attitude. And yes dogs can be trained to do things they may not care to do. But ability is another issue.

I was responding to Gordon's statement that one of his girl's strengths was her love of swimming. I didnot do feel that is something I would really consider when looking for a stud. And believe me, water work is something I love to do with my dogs and very important to me.

 

[cedarvalleynewfoundlands]

Anther well known kennel has a Ch. black/LR stud with a strong Ch.-laced pedigree and good health clearances, but according to the breeder, is "a little short" but she doesn't know his height!? That gives me pause. But maybe slightly reduced height would counter the tendency for Landseers to become leggy?
Gordon

It all depends on what they mean by "a little short". If he is very short, that won't counter any tendency for the pups to become leggy. What one would expect to happen if using a short Sire on a bitch that's height is to standard is for some of the pups to be short, and some to be to the standard. A short Sire wont "counteract" another trait in the bitch.

An example I like to use to explain trying to correct faults is that if your bitch has long ears and you breed her to a Sire with short ears, you wont get correct ears. You'll get mostly long ears or short ears, since one doesnt "counteract" the other. In the case used as an example, you'd be best to pick a Sire with correct ears, then you would probably get some pups with long ears and some with correct ears.
JMO

 

[ardeagold]

In bird dogs hunting behavior involves multiple behavior traits such as bird finding, eagerness, cooperation, speed, and style.

Drive is a major component and can be seen in a litter as young as 5 weeks old. Some have it, some have less of it, some have little if any of it. (This is based on information by Field Dog breeders). The pups are, of course, tested to see how they respond, and continue to be tested to determine which home will be the best match for them. No point in putting an extremely "birdy" dog into a pet home, or a non-birdy dog into a home that plans on working the dog (either in real life or in trials).

 

[IrishMist428]

I am certainly not a breeder and never will be.
Just curious .. Breeding to the standard as far as conformation ...commendable...a pretty show dog..WOW

But what gives going for the "Standard" as far as "Working Dog"

 

[ardeagold]

Oh...just curious. Have you ever considered showing your girl to see how she'd do? Or working her in other competitive events for titles? And if you don't think she'd do well because of her "faults", are you sure she's the one that you want to make your foundation bitch, since you intend to begin breeding?

Without showing her or competing with her in other venues, how are you sure that she does meet the breed standard? Things sound good on paper, but once you actually get involved in the process, you might find that she might not have "what it takes" to produce what you want, no matter who you find as a stud.

I think most people who get into any breed, and over time find they'd like to show/work/breed their dog(s), often find that their current dog of that breed, isn't what they want to reproduce...or use as the foundation for their breeding program.

But, since they're "hooked", they go out and get involved with the breed club, meet lots of breeders and perhaps find a good mentor to help them plan a program that meets their desires.

I'm just wondering if that's something you might want to consider?

I'm only mentioning all this because our first Newf, Mira, is a wonderful dog. She's a water maniac, will retrieve anything from the water that we send her out for, is agile, and is a good "working type dog". But, even tho she comes from 1/2 of a pedigree that's outstanding on many levels (conformation and working)....she surely isn't a show dog. She conforms when you read the standard, but she wouldn't win in a ring. (Although she is beautiful ... she's not show quality).

I suppose I could breed her to an outstanding stud and get some good pups (maybe), but why? I'd rather find a quality conforming female and if all went well as she matured, she showed well, and had good working ability, I'd prefer to breed that girl. I know I'd have a much better chance of getting the type of pup I want to continue with.

 

[RivNewf]

Showing, while a bit daunting, is my plan with future pups but I wonder if it's too late to start with my girl Bella. She's 3 years old and due to be bred so would probably be pushing 4 by the time she was back in condition. In lieu of showing her, I'm having her evaluated by a few folks with experience in the ring. But I do see your point and appreciate the tips.

Gordon

 

[RivNewf]

An example I like to use to explain trying to correct faults is that if your bitch has long ears and you breed her to a Sire with short ears, you wont get correct ears. You'll get mostly long ears or short ears, since one doesnt "counteract" the other. In the case used as an example, you'd be best to pick a Sire with correct ears, then you would probably get some pups with long ears and some with correct ears.
JMO

I see your point and it makes sense, but how does it reconcile with the statement made earlier, "you need to know what your girl needs to improve, what the male has to offer in those department and what he needs improvement on, does your girl compliment that," ? Doesn't that suggest that a well-chosen male could compliment (counteract?) weaknesses in the female and vice-versa?

 

[BluwaterNewfs]

Cedarvalleynewfoundlands is right -basically is 2 wrongs don't make a right. So if you breed a 'long' ear to a 'short' ear you will not get a correct ear. You do need breed to a correct ear to hopefully produce a correct ear. But you need know what the dogs in the pedigree have too and be prepared you get that. For instance, the sire may had normal ears but the sire's sire had big ears, you may get the grand sire's ears. I have seen it happen.

Showing, while a bit daunting, is my plan with future pups but I wonder if it's too late to start with my girl Bella. She's 3 years old and due to be bred so would probably be pushing 4 by the time she was back in condition. In lieu of showing her, I'm having her evaluated by a few folks with experience in the ring. But I do see your point and appreciate the tips.

Many newfoundands are first hitting their prime for the ring between 2 and 3. I think an important question to ask is "Should Bella be bred?" And this needs to answered BEFORE she is bred not after. Do these people with ring experience have Newfoundland experience and do they have the knowledge to properly evaluate her?

And here is a real big question - One we so rarely seen asked here when people say they want to breed. It was a question my breeder asked me when I said I wanted to breed. Why do want to breed? I know you stated you wanted a bitch you can show and breed, a show prospect you can buy. So I ask, why do you want to breed?

 

[Jeannie]

I have been following this thread and I agree that just because you think your dog is show quality does not make it so. My Adam comes from a long line of CHs, his bloodlines are wonderful but he is NOT a show dog. He has OFA excellent hips, heart, elbows and patellas but I won't breed him because he has a fault, his bite is off.

I wouldn't purchae a pup from anyone whose parents have not been in the show ring to see how they measure up to the standards.

What is the big deal of breeding her right away. Wouldn't it be smarter to see what she can do rather than what you think she can do? Or what you have been told?

As stated before 2-5 years is the ideal age to show. Health clearances are important but as noted in another thread the whole dog needs to be taken into consideration. (I learned a lot from that thread)

 

[wrknnwf]

I am certainly not a breeder and never will be.
Just curious .. Breeding to the standard as far as conformation ...commendable...a pretty show dog..WOW

But what gives going for the "Standard" as far as "Working Dog"

JMHO (and I'm sure some will disagree) - Conformation is more, and should be, than a beauty contest. The Standard is based on and allows for the correct structure that conforms to the work the dog was originally bred to do. Without conforming to that structure, the breed deteriorates into something that eventually can't do the work.

That doesn't mean that Standards can't or don't change. Sometimes they do and sometimes with horrible results (like severely brachyocephalic dogs). But in general (and I think this is true of the Newf standard) the characteristics for the dog's conformation are written to ensure that the breed is built for the work.

The reason for conformation shows is to evaluate a dog individually against the standard not against whoever happens to be showing that day.

Judges certainly can interpret the standard differently, but to imply that they are looking for the prettiest dog is fairly insulting. A good judge is looking at a number of things besides overall appearance. Angulation, movement, correct bite, eye placement or eyelids, head or tail carriage, size, correct temperament for that breed, are just a very few and those DO apply to the work the breed was meant to do. A Newf with poor head or tail carriage may not be able to swim effectively. One with a poor bite may not be able to retrieve as well. Loose eyes are prone to infection or debris when working, poor angulation hampers draft work, etc., etc.

I know that many times it seems like the judge is basing their decision on politics or other superficial factors. And it's easy (and sometimes fun) to sit on the sidelines criticizing the judge's decision. But I believe that the majority of judges are trying their best to evaluate (again) the whole individual dog, including it's intended purpose. And AKC and parent clubs are very involved with ongoing judge's education for each specific breed to ensure the judge KNOWS the correct structure and how it relates to the breed's work.

It would be pointless to include in the Standard characteristics like "good swimmer" or "loves to pull", because those are also trainable behaviors. Inate affinity for some task isn't necessary, but is certainly nice. And a dog that loves the water or likes to pull a cart isn't necessarily built correctly for strenuous water rescue or pulling in fishing nets or hauling lumber or any other traditional Newfoundland work.

Showing your dog or having it evaluated by an independent breed mentor and breeding to conform to the standard is the only reliable way that we have of preserving the working characteristics of the breed.

 

[wrknnwf]

In lieu of showing her, I'm having her evaluated by a few folks with experience in the ring. But I do see your point and appreciate the tips.

Gordon

That's great! I do hope these people have specific experience with Newfoundlands and the Newf Standard. Otherwise, their opinions may not be valuable to you.

 

[RivNewf]

And here is a real big question - One we so rarely seen asked here when people say they want to breed. It was a question my breeder asked me when I said I wanted to breed. Why do want to breed? I know you stated you wanted a bitch you can show and breed, a show prospect you can buy. So I ask, why do you want to breed?

I have kept Newfs as pets for over 20 years and have an affinity for the breed and it was only after much deliberation that I decided to undertake breeding. My primary reason for doing so is an interest in improving the breed and, from what I can see, there is plenty of need and opportunity to make improvements. But, let me be clear, my only interest in showing is as a means to strengthen my breeding program and my credibility as a breeder. As the AKC states,

"Dog shows, or "conformation" events, are the signature events of the AKC. They concentrate on the distinctive features of purebred dogs and help to preserve these characteristics by providing a forum at which to evaluate breeding stock."

This is the reason spayed or neutered dogs are disqualified from conformation events - they're no longer breeding stock.

What showing does, (notwithstanding its entertainment value) is provide the breeder (and potential buyers) with an independent, 3rd party evaluation by experienced judges of a particular dog's suitability for breeding, relative to the breed standard. It's just 1 tool in the breeders toolbox.

So, I'm not simply interested in a show prospect. My hope is to produce a puppy from my (at least partially proven) girl which has the potential to move me towards my goal.

Gordon

 

[Ginny]

elative to the breed standard. It's just 1 tool in the breeders toolbox.

So, I'm not simply interested in a show prospect. My hope is to produce a puppy from my (at least partially proven) girl which has the potential to move me towards my goal.

Gordon

The reality is, however, that she hasn't been proven to meet the breed standard. That, in addition to clearances, should should be primary because you are isolated, new to conformation, and have no mentor. IMHO you've already put the horse before the cart with your first breeding of her and you're about to do it again. Having someone evaluate her and giving the thumbs up is not the same as earning a CH in your situation.

 

[Jeannie]

The reality is, however, that she hasn't been proven to meet the breed standard. That, in addition to clearances, should should be primary because you are isolated, new to conformation, and have no mentor. IMHO you've already put the horse before the cart with your first breeding of her and you're about to do it again. Having someone evaluate her and giving the thumbs up is not the same as earning a CH in your situation.

Well said Ginny. I agree 100%.

 

[DreamTime Newfs]

So, the only dogs that should be bred should have their Championship? I do not agree with this. Do I think breeding stock should be shown? Yes I do, but I do not agree that a dog should have their championship in order to be bred. I have been to many dog shows and I have seen, in my opinion, some great judging and some really awful judging. Everyone has their own opinion and vision of what the breed standard is and that includes judges. I have seen many great dogs lose to dogs that should not be bred. It is a fact of life, everyone has their own opinion and pretty much any Newfie out there could be a Champion. It may take longer for some then others but if you are willing to take the time and lots of money you can finish just about anything.

 

[Lisa@Caeles Hills]

If one is a very experienced breeder perhaps a Title would not be necessary. I dont agree that any dog can get a title. Maybe single points but Majors are tough. I still think showing is the best way to become educated in the breed, and become realistic about the stock you already have. If new at breeding Newfs, I think one should go through the show circuit at least a few times if they are serious about improving the BREED. If one is really only serious about improving their own stock, well, I guess then they dont need AKC judges for that.

 

[Ginny]

If you read carefully what I posted, I didn't mean to say that only CHes should be bred. Heck, Addy came from a bitch who didn't have her CH - she does now, but she also came from an experienced breeder who has bred many champs and knew that her mother was to standard and could improve the breed. Gordon is out there on his own, with no mentor, and no show experience. Being out there in the ring and having contact with well put together dogs and breeders (I not referring to their physical characteristics here!) would be of great help to him. Just having someone go over his dog (we don't know if they even are knowledgeable Newf people or even experienced with Newfs) isn't enough IMO.

And yes, probably having enough money and time may lead to some questionable champs, but I surely hope that is more the exception than the rule. If it's vice versa we are in dangerous territory.

 

[Jeannie]

So, the only dogs that should be bred should have their Championship? I do not agree with this. Do I think breeding stock should be shown? Yes I do,

This is what I have been saying. The bitch should be shown to see if she meets the breed standard. Not all need to be CH to be bred but they should meet the standard