Yes they are knowledgeable Newf people - experienced breeders and owner/handlers.
The Perfect Stud
- Thread starter RivNewf
- Start date
Piratebears
New member
It would be great if some one had some pictures or diagrams to show examples of good / bad bone structure etc.
Whilst I can identify bad top line and toeing in / out ..I think I can notice good / bad bone structure,but would love to see some examples if any one has anything they can post ?
Whilst I can identify bad top line and toeing in / out ..I think I can notice good / bad bone structure,but would love to see some examples if any one has anything they can post ?
Piratebears
New member
Whilst I agree with most of the below,There is a big deal being made here in England right now about breeders only caring what a dogs confirmation and 'looks' are like.
Some breeds ( granted,not Newfys ) are suffering health wise as breeders breed for paticular bone structure and head size that in a few generations time causes health problems.
It could be argued that we are starting to take this route.Newf's seem to be getting larger and larger,and 'wrinkles' seem to be becoming a popular fashion.Whilst these dogs may be classed as breed standard and with the correct health clearances deemed the 'perfect' stud choice,they could very well be Adding to our long list of Newfy problems in the long run.
All I am hinting at,is that IMO Show dogs are not always the perfect examples of the breed in the same way that super models are not the best representation of the human race !
Having said all of this,I would never breed from a dog ( Or buy a puppy from ) a dog who does not conform very closely to the breed standard - things such as size,bone structure,top line and bite are very important.I also LOVE the wrinkles on the muzzle - but I can see that these in 20 yrs time could cause the breed breathing problems etc.
Some people have wonderful breed specimens,from fantastic parentage,but do not show or breed - IMO this does not make the dog any less qualified for sireing a fantastic litter,it just means he is not as well known.
I do feel there is a lot of 'snobery' in the show ring,but I also agree there are far too many litters bred from 'pet dogs' that have far too little breed standard.
Just My opinion - I'm always going to be a bit touchy as I have unaccepted greys !
:tongue:
Some breeds ( granted,not Newfys ) are suffering health wise as breeders breed for paticular bone structure and head size that in a few generations time causes health problems.
It could be argued that we are starting to take this route.Newf's seem to be getting larger and larger,and 'wrinkles' seem to be becoming a popular fashion.Whilst these dogs may be classed as breed standard and with the correct health clearances deemed the 'perfect' stud choice,they could very well be Adding to our long list of Newfy problems in the long run.
All I am hinting at,is that IMO Show dogs are not always the perfect examples of the breed in the same way that super models are not the best representation of the human race !
Having said all of this,I would never breed from a dog ( Or buy a puppy from ) a dog who does not conform very closely to the breed standard - things such as size,bone structure,top line and bite are very important.I also LOVE the wrinkles on the muzzle - but I can see that these in 20 yrs time could cause the breed breathing problems etc.
Some people have wonderful breed specimens,from fantastic parentage,but do not show or breed - IMO this does not make the dog any less qualified for sireing a fantastic litter,it just means he is not as well known.
I do feel there is a lot of 'snobery' in the show ring,but I also agree there are far too many litters bred from 'pet dogs' that have far too little breed standard.
Just My opinion - I'm always going to be a bit touchy as I have unaccepted greys !
:tongue:
It's interesting that you mention this. I see that the UK is changing the standard for many breeds including Newfs. Here are the Newfoundland changes...
General Appearance Well balanced, impresses with strength and great activity. [Delete ‘Massive’] Strong bone throughout, but not giving heavy inactive appearance. Noble, majestic and powerful.
Head and Skull Head broad and [delete ‘massive’] Relatively large, occipital bone well developed, no decided stop, muzzle short, clean cut and rather square, covered with short fine hair.
Eyes Relatively small, dark brown, [delete ‘rather deeply set’] not showing haw, set rather wide apart. Free from obvious eye problems.
Hindquarters delete reference to removal of dewclaws
Sorry, they didn't rewrite the color standard, but you can always come over here!
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janices
New member
I also think it's interesting you've said that. I looked at UK changes too. I know about few cases of elongated soft palate in newfs starting to occur which usually happens in short muzzled breeds.
To me personally it's a plus when I see newfs out doing working activities and doing well plus competing in the special ring. Normally just see the specials out show campaigning. As has been said in other threads, imo, whole newf package should be considered when making a breeding decision.
marylouz
New member
I would recommend for reference both the NCA Illustrated Guide- online at:
http://www.ncanewfs.org/publications/illustratedguide/illusguidecontents.html
and Ron Pemberton's "A Study of the Newfoundland" - available for $9.95 from Newf Emporium:
http://www.newfemporium.com
both have illustrations of fronts, rears, heads, toplines, etc. showing what is correct and what is a fault.
MLZ
http://www.ncanewfs.org/publications/illustratedguide/illusguidecontents.html
and Ron Pemberton's "A Study of the Newfoundland" - available for $9.95 from Newf Emporium:
http://www.newfemporium.com
both have illustrations of fronts, rears, heads, toplines, etc. showing what is correct and what is a fault.
MLZ
IrishMist428
New member
What I was trying to ask is ... we have so many breeders here, who show for conformation. Those who "show" Kudos !! I want to know why there are not more breeders who are not ONLY concerned with conformation but aslo working abilities. Why don't more breeders also do water, draft and obedience along with conformation.
Lisa@Caeles Hills
New member
I show in conformation and also do some draft with my dog. I would love to do more water training but am not a water person myself and am a little afraid of it. I am not a breeder but I think the answer to the above question would be the time factor. Goodness, to work full time, train and condition show dogs, spend weekends at the dog show, doesnt leave much time for even family. I would think most breeders would hope some of their puppy buyers might do some the "other" things with their newfs, as they themselves probably just dont have the time. I know one thing though, a well bred Newf who is healthy and has great structure and temperament should have no problem doing well in the working aspect of the breed.
People have many reasons for not personally "doing" events. Some are just plain too old...LOL, some are physically disabled, some are afraid of the water, some are taking care of litters, showing takes a great deal of time and money, etc. There could be many reasons. I think it's always interesting to see the many dogs, produced by breeders who don't handle in events, which have wonderful working abilities. Just because a breeder doesn't participate themselves, doesn't mean they aren't breeding with those abilities in mind.
And, I believe if you are breeding for conformation, you are concerned with working ability. A dog without the correct conformation isn't going to be much of a working dog as far as structure goes. The dog may be enthusiastic, but that doesn't make him a good working dog. Sort of like me. I have the enthusiasm to do lots of things that my body won't let me do. My structure is all wrong. LOL
And, I believe if you are breeding for conformation, you are concerned with working ability. A dog without the correct conformation isn't going to be much of a working dog as far as structure goes. The dog may be enthusiastic, but that doesn't make him a good working dog. Sort of like me. I have the enthusiasm to do lots of things that my body won't let me do. My structure is all wrong. LOL
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ardeagold
New member
True. In fact, "form follows function". So if the dog ROUTINELY functions exceptionally well at his/her intended "jobs" .... the form (or structure), would naturally be correct.
The question is, was the breed standard written/studied by those who actually worked their dogs routinely and occasionally exhibited the dog in a show ring, or by those who were trying to "design" a better looking dog for the ring (which is open to opinion) yet had only adequate working abilities?
Working ability is determined by structure and drive, as is proper movement. But good conformation doesn't always equate to superb working ability, IMO. Drive/desire plays a huge factor.
Part of the problem with some of the working dogs (as well as the sporting dogs) is that their "jobs" are extinct, or becoming that way. Few in this world use a Newf to routinely pull fish (or whatever) to market on a cart anymore...or pull a ship to shore....or pull a fishing boat's catch in from the water to the boat. They're not used as smaller versions of draft horses these days.
So...their form is being changed by two things. Natural evolution, and human interference. Is that a bad thing? Perhaps, for the purists. But, in today's world, there isn't an opportunity for a Newf to be that "dog of olde" ... so it's changing to fit it's current environment.
We can only keep that original Newf "original" to a point. No matter how we try or what we do, the Newf is going to evolve into a dog that fits in today's world.
I can pretty much guarantee that even the best draft dogs out there today couldn't hold a candle to the Newfs of old. Same goes for the water Newfs. No matter how many titles they have, they're not the same dog anymore. They're not really "working dogs". They've become companion dogs with some level of working ability.
We need to try to save as much of that "working ability" as we can, to keep the breed as true to the original as possible, but because we're not who we were a century ago .... they're not who they were either.
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Piratebears
New member
I agree with this and would happily buy from a breeder who show's and does not work - however,I would happily buy from a breeder who works and does not show - as I work my dogs and to me the working is just as much a 'breed trait' as webbed feet!
My point is too many people frown on 'non showing' breeders,yet 'non working' breeders are accepted as they just may not have time or the inclin ....Isn't the same true for non showing breeders ??
I don't think so and I really don't think you can fairly compare the two. Apples and oranges, as they say.
Breeders can, and very often do, hire pro handlers or enlist friends to show their dogs. But it's almost always owners (who may also be the breeder) who handle in AKC and NCA obedience and working events.
It's not important that the breeder personally shows the dog in conformation. Only that it has had a chance to be evaluated. The dog/handler bond doesn't necessarily have to exist. It's not uncommon for a person exhibiting two or more dogs in conformation to grab some friend on the sidelines to handle one of them. That person doesn't have to even know that dog personally. The handler is NOT being judged in conformation, though skill is certainly helpful. My point here is that there really is no excuse for not having your breeding stock evaluated in the ring.
And think about this. For working events, all the dog has to do is successfully complete the exercises. It's not a requirement to have good conformation to compete. No one is going to examine a bite or look for toeing in or out in the event arena. So it's possible that a breeder could exhibit some pretty crummy specimens of the breed in working events. That would not be a good basis for passing those genes on.
And then, you have to remember that working/obedience events are demonstrations of how adept the handler is at training complex behaviors. In some events, the handler also is being judged and can lose points, causing the dog to not pass. While some dogs may have natural abilities, with enough patience, even a dog with no natural ability can be trained to do an exercise. Events are not really a reliable indicator of inate talent on the dog's part.
Another reason breeders may not compete in working events is just plain fear or lack of training skills. There's a WHOLE lot of difference between going in the ring with a bunch of other people and dogs (safety in numbers-lol?) where only the dog is being judged, and being the only one in the arena and having to successfully complete a complex set of manuevers while you yourself are being judged. A lot of people just get too nervous. And then there's the food factor. Events don't allow you to bait/treat dogs, conformation does. Oddly enough, going into the ring without food totally unnerves a lot of people. LOL
Having done both, I can tell you that the training and practice that goes into working events takes an entirely different set of skills and requires a different dog/handler bond in comparison to teaching a dog to gait and free stack. Both require a lot of money and time, but in very different ways. You can exhibit in working/obedience events, never leave your home town and still get a certificate. That's very rarely true of conformation. A dog only has to pass one working trial to earn a title, while a conformation dog has to earn points and majors under several judges to earn a CH. The differences in the two just can't be compared easily.
Finally, the main reason we encourage puppy buyers to look for breeders who have dogs that do both conformation and working events is that it demonstrates the breeders involvement/knowledge of the breed and their committment to (you've heard it before!) THE WHOLE DOG. (I think we need a bumper sticker with that phrase...seriously. lol "The whole dog and nothing but...")
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BluwaterNewfs
New member
Would it possible for some of the breeders to respond to this. So far we onlt have non breeders weighing in on this.
Piratebears
New member
I may get shot down in flames for point three below,but a lot of English Newfy owners would confirm I'm right !
Its certainly good to hear everyone's point of view on the subject.
I do agree that where possible you should get your puppy from a breeder who both shows and works.
However,I have listed a few of your coments in the form of points above :
- I believe there is good excuse for not having certain breeding stock evaluated in the ring - In Canada for example,Brown's are seen as Non breed standard,and here in England Greys are non breed standard.These dogs are both capable of producing offspring of perfect breed standard,they may be of perfect confirmation yet can not be shown due to a Country specific breed standard.
- I also believe there are instances where a breeder can show a very Nice looking dog in the ring,with perfect confirmation who may very well have poor health clearances etc - Just because a dog looks very good does not indicate it is very healthy.Whilst I realise health clearences prevent these dogs from breeding,there is nothing to stop them being shown and 'made up' to enhance the popularity of the 'Kennel'
- Showing in my eyes is not always a good indicator of the dogs confirmation,in some cases it is just a good indicator of 'who ' the dog's owners know ........right face,right name ......
- In England you cannot win a working CH title at all,and to gain certificates you almost certainly have to leave your home town.To recieve a certificate of Merit or a diploma the dog has to be judged at 3 different venues by several different judges
KatieB
New member
Same here..nearest working event is 3 hours most are 4 or more hours from us and only offered once a year....so you drive 4 hours in hopes of passing that one test once that year or you wait an entire year for the next time. Not exactly that easy or available considering the many ways you can fail...there are many many more conformation events within that same driving distance so much easier to show your dog in that ring than in the working events.
Sun Valley
New member
I'll throw in my 2 cents on that one..
Other then Patti, who lives about 50 minutes from me, I am not close to any other Newf person/people who train and practice. I also work on Saturdays, so anything going on that day within a reasonable driving distance is out of the question for me.
Lou Ann
Other then Patti, who lives about 50 minutes from me, I am not close to any other Newf person/people who train and practice. I also work on Saturdays, so anything going on that day within a reasonable driving distance is out of the question for me. Lou Ann
I also have to drive to any working or conformation events. at least 1.5 hours. I am lucky to have a conformation class close 6 miles away on Monday night , however I work and do not get home every Monday night untill 9 PM. I also work every other Friday, Saturday and Sunday, so I have to plan what events to go to. I am driving for example two hours to Brooksville this week and two hours return trip home. for each day of the show.
We have had draft practice last fall at another Newf owners home a few miles from my home with the Draft Test being held a few weeks later at the same place. This is the first time ever a working event was held so close to my home usually it is 2-3 hours away. Obdience is classes are 20 miles away.
We have had draft practice last fall at another Newf owners home a few miles from my home with the Draft Test being held a few weeks later at the same place. This is the first time ever a working event was held so close to my home usually it is 2-3 hours away. Obdience is classes are 20 miles away.
BluwaterNewfs
New member
I do both with my dogs - I have 2 VN's, 1 that has 3 of 5 titles, and 3 in training. The shortest distance I travel to obedience class several nights and that is about 45 minute rise (one way) in NY traffic. Any event I attend is almost always a minimum of 1 1/2 hour and at least 1 bridge toll usually more. Obedience trials (not talking rally) require 3 qualifying scores under 3 different judges to get your title. OK - A water or draft only require to qualifiy once. But Where can you get any of these titles without leaving your home town. I don't think there is NCA test that I have attended where I didn't need spend at least 1 night on motel.