The Culture Clash
- Thread starter Elizabeth
- Start date
I really liked this book. It made so much sense to me. I found her writing style to be a little abrasive sometimes, but I kept nodding my head and saying, "Yep! That's so true!"
One of the more interesting dog books I've read in a while - definitely not "same-old, same-old."
One of the more interesting dog books I've read in a while - definitely not "same-old, same-old."
NewfyDad
New member
I think this deserves to be bumped up.
Paula gave me this book to read last weekend and I was instantly impressed with Jean Donaldsons knowledge and understanding of dog behavior and how dogs think. It is the most comprehensive of any dog or training book I've ever read. Everyone would benefit from aquiring a better understanding of the how dogs think and why they do what they do. As Paula said, "it offered wonderful insight about how dogs really think, how we all too often attribute human emotions/superior intellect to them and the trouble that causes for dogs, it has great training techniques".
I'm sure there are a lot of people who will disagree with her, but I think she is absolutely spot on.
This book should be required reading for every dog owner.
Paula gave me this book to read last weekend and I was instantly impressed with Jean Donaldsons knowledge and understanding of dog behavior and how dogs think. It is the most comprehensive of any dog or training book I've ever read. Everyone would benefit from aquiring a better understanding of the how dogs think and why they do what they do. As Paula said, "it offered wonderful insight about how dogs really think, how we all too often attribute human emotions/superior intellect to them and the trouble that causes for dogs, it has great training techniques".
I'm sure there are a lot of people who will disagree with her, but I think she is absolutely spot on.
This book should be required reading for every dog owner.
Honey Bear
New member
It was a very informative book. I learned alot and still pick it up from time to time just to read different chapters here and there.
Garden_girl
New member
Oh boy...this book is not for everyone, it can seem harsh at times. Jean Donaldson writes in no nonsense terms with humor injected here and there. There are those of us that think of our dogs as furry children, capable of a gamut of human-like emotions. Jean Donaldson says that just isn't so, and she calls dogs 'clever lemon-brains'. She does say that you can *unabashedly think of dogs and love them as your fur-children* as long as you understand and respect the way dogs really think and what motivates them. They are unique and deserving of our love on their own terms.
I'll give you a for instance relating to my OWN life.
When I first started taking Nellie to puppy classes over 6 years ago, I did not want to use training treats very often. Not because I was afraid she would gain weight, but because (selfishly) I wanted her to do what I asked because she wanted to please me. (the Disneyland dog mentality). Really, a dog wants to do those things because of the reward involved. I have since learned, when you couple those treats with happy praise, a dog can learn to do things to please you AND the possibilty of a yummy reward because you've conditioned them that way. Dogs *like* to see their owners happy and excited!
After the initial shock wears off from reading the first chapter, (be prepared to start re-thinking how your dog's mind works) she gets into great training techniques using conditioning and positive reinforcement.
There is a 2005 expanded edition if you can get your hands on it.
I hope this link works-there are pages from the first chapter of the book.
Culture Clash
The Walt Disney dog will undoubtedly end up in a shelter, because of a misinformed owner.
Just remember.....if you DON"T like book...don't shoot the messenger! :fce32f95:
I'll give you a for instance relating to my OWN life.
When I first started taking Nellie to puppy classes over 6 years ago, I did not want to use training treats very often. Not because I was afraid she would gain weight, but because (selfishly) I wanted her to do what I asked because she wanted to please me. (the Disneyland dog mentality). Really, a dog wants to do those things because of the reward involved. I have since learned, when you couple those treats with happy praise, a dog can learn to do things to please you AND the possibilty of a yummy reward because you've conditioned them that way. Dogs *like* to see their owners happy and excited!
After the initial shock wears off from reading the first chapter, (be prepared to start re-thinking how your dog's mind works) she gets into great training techniques using conditioning and positive reinforcement.
There is a 2005 expanded edition if you can get your hands on it.
I hope this link works-there are pages from the first chapter of the book.
Culture Clash
The Walt Disney dog will undoubtedly end up in a shelter, because of a misinformed owner.
Just remember.....if you DON"T like book...don't shoot the messenger! :fce32f95:
Last edited:
Leigh
New member
I just ordered this book from Dogwise.com, it's the second edition published in 2005. After speaking to a dog trainer here on Long Island she recommended two must read books. Happy Kids, Happy Dogs by Barbara Scumannfand and The Culture Clash. They just arrived today, looking forward to reading.
charityd
New member
I believe only moderators can delete a post. Double posts tend to happen more when the clock is stuck like it is right now.
rcantor
New member
Sorry, but I disagree. Behaviourists insist they are right but their reasoning is circular. They assume their principles then use that to prove their principles. Contrary to her claims I think most of us have seen dogs learn by imitation and put themselves at risk to protect a loved one. On the other hand, behaviorist training works very well. So do what she says, but don't think as she thinks. THe training works because it enforces accurate non-verbal communication. It's an accurate subset of what dogs can do. It's not the entirety, even if she claims it is.
Garden_girl
New member
You can disagree Bob, no apology is necessary. 
How do we learn? We either have an abstract thought and experiment to test whether it's valid OR we observe and implement what we've observed. What are your training philosophies based on? I feel very confident in her years of observation and expertise that her theories are (for the most part) correct. I would never to presume to tell someone how to think.
How do we learn? We either have an abstract thought and experiment to test whether it's valid OR we observe and implement what we've observed. What are your training philosophies based on? I feel very confident in her years of observation and expertise that her theories are (for the most part) correct. I would never to presume to tell someone how to think.
rcantor
New member
I think her methods of training are great. There is, however, value in learning how to think. Thats why universities offer courses in logic and rhetoric. When you evaluate her writings it becomes clear that she rejects non-behaviorist thinking on wishful thinking, manipulative and emotional grounds and occaisionally other logical fallicies. Then she proclaims, since there's nothing left, everything is behaviorist, which is another error in logic. I advise people to think differently. Don't reject your observations just because they don't fit with your pet theories. Do use accurate principles of logic. I'm definitely not apologising for wanting people to think well. I'm not even apologising for pointing out her logical fallicies. I'm apologising for potentially dampening peoples' enthusiasm. And I'm not saying all behaviorist thinking is fallacious. Just hers in her behaviorist totalitarianism. I agree with her methods because the behaviorists have done some of the best thinking on non-verbal, cross species communication and motivation that exists. It's in her attempts to expand what works as a training system to encompass all that exists in dog learning that she engages in her logical errors. Many years ago behaviorists tried to get everyone to think that all human behavior was "behaviorist". Now even they admit that that's wrong. Her attitudes about dog learning come from the same root and are, in my opinion, equally wrong. Even though I agree with her methods and behaviorist thinking as a training method.
My training philosophy? Do what works, live in reality. I used to be totally unimpressed with the positive only crowd because it just didn't work with my dogs. Then I got Princess. She's totally different than any dog I've ever had. Everything the positive only crowd says is right about her. Not for Tank or Isaac, but definitely Princess. Now I see where they're coming from. They probably had dogs like her when they developed it. I still don't do positive only, but punishment for her is a tone of mild disappointment.
Not only that, but I love gardening, too. Do you think anyone would be interested in a strawberry bread recipe? I had to figure out what to do with a lot of berries!
My training philosophy? Do what works, live in reality. I used to be totally unimpressed with the positive only crowd because it just didn't work with my dogs. Then I got Princess. She's totally different than any dog I've ever had. Everything the positive only crowd says is right about her. Not for Tank or Isaac, but definitely Princess. Now I see where they're coming from. They probably had dogs like her when they developed it. I still don't do positive only, but punishment for her is a tone of mild disappointment.
Not only that, but I love gardening, too. Do you think anyone would be interested in a strawberry bread recipe? I had to figure out what to do with a lot of berries!
Last edited:
Garden_girl
New member
Bob, it is the very 'wishful type' thinking that has gotten dogs in the mess they are in right now, that, I'm sure she has right. I believe many, many dog owners don't have a true understanding (not an inkling) of the way a dog thinks. Animal behavior has been studied by hundreds, no thousands, of zoologists, behaviorists, animal psychologists and for the most part, there is general agreement among the top in their respectives fields about why dogs behave they way they do. I find that the difference comes in training techniques, not behavioral studies and theories.
If pet owners read this book and their 'collective' thinking changes somewhat about why dogs do some of the things they do, that could prevent a lot of dogs from ending up in a shelter, or worse yet, being euthanized. My thinking/philosophy never really changed because I read the book, I felt affirmation, yes. Do you really believe a dog would willfully destroy their master's furniture out of defiance for being left alone (as in the first chapter)? I think MOST people do believe that.
I think dogs are more complicated than Jean gives them credit for. I wouldn't go so far as to say dogs are not emotionally involved with their families, I truly believe they are. But, I often hear many buzzwords attributed to dogs that I don't believe really exist in the domesticated modern dog's psyche as it relates to their relationship to humans. Dog owners always want to know the 'why' of things and I think this book gives good general explanations of many issues/topics facing dog owners.
Animal behaviorists and certified trainers have saved many a dog from death sentences all over the world. And lets face it, the dream of the Disneyland dog just isn't working for dogs. Cesar Milan works very differently from Donaldson, Dunbar & McConnell. Some behaviorists believe he has set positive reinforcment training back 10 years and it has taken ions to get [positive reinforcement] where it is today. I think Cesar has a place in the dog training world and I believe he has saved many dogs from euthanasia. but not everyone can duplicate his techniques.
What do we ask of dogs when we bring them into our homes? We ask them not to do all the things that are instinctive to them, we ask them not to bark, bite or chew, we ask them to walk beside us on leashes, to sleep in man-made crates, to get along with every human and every animal that crosses their paths, to do what we ask, when we ask. How do we do it-behavior modification and positive reinforcement. Why is positive reinforcement/behaviorism so successful? Because animal behavior has been studied and this is what works for most dogs, not all, but most. BTW, Donaldson DOES believe that punishment has it's place when issued in a precise and effective manner and simply ignoring negative behavior is another form of punishment, which she also believes in. Me? I give my dogs time-outs when they are misbehaving and it works. She also adheres to a more individualized type of training in her practice for dogs/pupppies because they are not all the same.
If pet owners read this book and their 'collective' thinking changes somewhat about why dogs do some of the things they do, that could prevent a lot of dogs from ending up in a shelter, or worse yet, being euthanized. My thinking/philosophy never really changed because I read the book, I felt affirmation, yes. Do you really believe a dog would willfully destroy their master's furniture out of defiance for being left alone (as in the first chapter)? I think MOST people do believe that.
I think dogs are more complicated than Jean gives them credit for. I wouldn't go so far as to say dogs are not emotionally involved with their families, I truly believe they are. But, I often hear many buzzwords attributed to dogs that I don't believe really exist in the domesticated modern dog's psyche as it relates to their relationship to humans. Dog owners always want to know the 'why' of things and I think this book gives good general explanations of many issues/topics facing dog owners.
Animal behaviorists and certified trainers have saved many a dog from death sentences all over the world. And lets face it, the dream of the Disneyland dog just isn't working for dogs. Cesar Milan works very differently from Donaldson, Dunbar & McConnell. Some behaviorists believe he has set positive reinforcment training back 10 years and it has taken ions to get [positive reinforcement] where it is today. I think Cesar has a place in the dog training world and I believe he has saved many dogs from euthanasia. but not everyone can duplicate his techniques.
What do we ask of dogs when we bring them into our homes? We ask them not to do all the things that are instinctive to them, we ask them not to bark, bite or chew, we ask them to walk beside us on leashes, to sleep in man-made crates, to get along with every human and every animal that crosses their paths, to do what we ask, when we ask. How do we do it-behavior modification and positive reinforcement. Why is positive reinforcement/behaviorism so successful? Because animal behavior has been studied and this is what works for most dogs, not all, but most. BTW, Donaldson DOES believe that punishment has it's place when issued in a precise and effective manner and simply ignoring negative behavior is another form of punishment, which she also believes in. Me? I give my dogs time-outs when they are misbehaving and it works. She also adheres to a more individualized type of training in her practice for dogs/pupppies because they are not all the same.
I would love your strawberry bread recipe! You can always change your user name to Garden_Guy! :LMAO:
rcantor
New member
I agree with most of what you've said. Almost never is furniture chewed for revenge. But the first time Isaac caught me peeing in his water bowl he went right down the hall and peed on the side of my bed. Tell me *that* wasn't expressing his anger in a fashion similar to revenge. He's never done that before or since. I think people should be freed from the disney dog delusion. But I thnk dogs rarely acheive their potential because their attempts to communicate are ignored and extinguished.
I think if I changed my name your husband would be unhappy. The bread recipes will appear in the 'open' forum
I think if I changed my name your husband would be unhappy. The bread recipes will appear in the 'open' forum
Garden_girl
New member
Well, that begs the question why were you peeing in Isaacs water bowl? :lol:
Nope, John wouldn't get mad-he would definitely think it's weird, but he wouldn't get mad. :icon_stupid:
Nope, John wouldn't get mad-he would definitely think it's weird, but he wouldn't get mad. :icon_stupid:
ina/puusty
New member
I must admit..the water bowl situation..has peaked my interest...as the only times I was trained to 'pee on command'..so to speak, was when marking the edge of my tarp/camp space..in the mountains..for the very same reason other animals ..'mark territory'.."this is mine for now..bug-off!" ina n HB
Honey Bear
New member
My favorite chapter is 4-It's all chew toys to them.
Empathy 101.
Jean really has a creative way of explaining how you would feel if you were a dog. hehe..
Empathy 101.
Jean really has a creative way of explaining how you would feel if you were a dog. hehe..
Culture Clash is the only dog training book I have.
If you're simply training a companion animal, ie. good manners, walk well, etc., this book is plenty.
I found it after I had put my dogs thru a couple of choke-collar classes ... they were so wrong for my girls and me. Keely looked up at me one night as I was training her to heel, with me pulling on a metal slip collar, and said, "Why?" and just sat down. The slip-collars and the punishment oriented training was very quickly effective with Honey Bear (a bad puller). But it started to ruin our relationship. Culture Clash offered a far more comprehensive approach to training. It took longer, but once instilled, was very effective.
I've got to get the second edition ...
Liz
If you're simply training a companion animal, ie. good manners, walk well, etc., this book is plenty.
I found it after I had put my dogs thru a couple of choke-collar classes ... they were so wrong for my girls and me. Keely looked up at me one night as I was training her to heel, with me pulling on a metal slip collar, and said, "Why?" and just sat down. The slip-collars and the punishment oriented training was very quickly effective with Honey Bear (a bad puller). But it started to ruin our relationship. Culture Clash offered a far more comprehensive approach to training. It took longer, but once instilled, was very effective.
I've got to get the second edition ...
Liz
Last edited: