Pandora's Box .... Unleashed ....

[CaSHMeRe]

I FEEL LIKE THIS :grrr:

Joanna and I have done nothing but spend hours researching, only giving our little Kaylee best in everything ... Time, Food, Love, Kitty Playmates, and vet care .... and we still FAIL :icon_redface:

Yesterday, we took Kaylee in to our normal vet that I have personally known for years. Diagnosis = Panosteitis (Growing Pains) for her limping hip. At this time, no issues of her diarrhea were brought up. Vet told us to rest her and if she seemed to be in pain, bring her back and he would perscribe pain meds. Great I thought... she's gonna grow out of it. HE COULDN'T HAVE BEEN MORE WRONG!

Today, she had diarrhea. Not even normal diarrhea ... pure mucus bile looking liquid. Call a vet, recommended by some of my parents friends, and rush Kaylee over. While I'm there, I figure, I need a 2nd opinion on Kaylee's hip issue as well. I remembered to take a fresh slimy stool sample with me so luckily, we didn't have to wait on that. PLUS ... her office was about 5 minutes from our house !!! She doesn't consider this an emergency visit and even fits us in at the end of her lunch before she see's other animals !!! CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT ?!?!?! Didn't even know us, yet went out of her way to help us !!! A brownie point right there. Just charged normal vet visit fee, no additional ER fee which made my day ... another brownie point.

THIS VET IS THE MOST AMAZING VET EVER !!! She spent 30 minutes going over Kaylee's last few weeks diet, activities, etc... another 30 minutes examining her hips, and her right hind leg in particular, then rushing Kaylee off for xrays. And the result ... no bueno. As for the diarrhea ... Chicken and rice for out little one, while we wait on the test for the Giardia.

Although you can't define HD on a dog until about 9-10 months of age, there are some HUGE warning signs, and Kaylee has a majority of them.
Here is what Kaylee has going against her.
1. Hip joints (ball and socket) are square shaped instead of round, and if you notice, her right hip socket is already starting to push the joint (ball) out and become more shallow of a socket itself.
2. When running, she bunny hops with her rear legs.
3. Both hips hurt when stretched. Even moving them around Kaylee jerked in discomfort.
4. Already developed a limp.

Her xray (1 of several) is at the bottom. Looking at it, her right hip (the main one she has been having issues with) is on the left. You can clearly see the issues. The femur (upper bone of leg) where it meets the ball itself is shorter than the left side. The socket itself is becoming more shallow and doesn't dive as deep as the left side.

In the end ... Dr. Susy suggested we take xrays again about 3-4 months down the road and prepare to undergo whats called a "Triple Pelvic Osteotomy" Once we clear up Kaylee digestive issues, we will then concentrate on her hips and go from there. Appointments with Orthopedic doctors/surgeons will start to happen within the next few weeks if kaylee's hips indeed decide to go down the wrong path She's a fighter, so we're hoping she will pull through!

My breeder deserves the chair literally. If he didn't live in another state, I would show up on his doorstep. Contracts are useless once you are this far in. And our contract was for replacement of the dog only, no vet bills :-(

I am now looking for a good pet insurance company and will be starting another thread on that.

Thanks for hearing me vent ...

Her Hips:

Another Sad Day ... They seem to never end

 

[Yogi & Cordelia's Erin]

Oh the poor dear.

It is amazing the difference it vets, kinda like the difference in doctors. It took me a long time to warm up to the Vet we use right now, partially because she's so far away. With all Yogi's complications lately though, there's no one else I'd trust.

Heck, I even second-opinioned my own GP this week ... I figure it never hurts to have someone else put their mind around a situation.

Here's hoping for less pain and a stable tummy soon for her. She's such a cutie.

 

[Tug]

((((Kaylee)))) The poor dear doesn't even know why, just that she hurts
I agree those breeders should be shot! LYNCHING party anyone?

 

[suse]

Oh, poor baby.

 

[Bob M]

I'm so sorry you have to deal with this, and I'm especially sorry for poor Kaylee.

Just don't ever think that you have "failed." It's quite apparent you are making sure that she is well cared-for. It's rough for you to have to deal with this, but there's no question that going home with you was a very lucky break for the little puppy.

I'm very glad to see that you had the gumption to seek out a new vet. You need to be able to trust your pet's doctor. When we brought 2-year-old Abbie home, our former vet totally missed that she was a month pregnant with 11 puppies... and then two weeks later, continued to miss the condition, even when we specifically asked him. It took going to a completely new vet to get confirmation of what we'd been suspecting...and of course now that second vet is our primary physician. (She's the one who just operated on Abbie's knee last week.)

Hang in there. As I said, even if this is rough for you, Kaylee lucked out in one way: her people.

 

[Erika]

aw poor Luv, thank goodness she has you, who loves her so much.You will get through this all and she will be OK.Heres hoping that things turn around,this is a great place for support!!! As far as the breeder.GRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!! Ill leave it at that. Hugs to you and your little sweetie!!Sending prayers and an angel for you guys...E

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

Poor puppy. She is lucky you are doing so much for her. Unfortunately no insurance company will cover any of this and will be considered a pre existing issue, but is a good idea for any new future issues. I hope things improve for her.

 

[CaSHMeRe]

thanks everyone for the very kind comments ...

Lynn, as far as insurance goes, Kaylee wasn't really diagnosed with anything. For all we know, it could turn for the good an be completely fine. Therefore, there really is no "pre-existing" issue. All that was done was taking a look at her hips and I believe that is what the record shows as well. All we concluded essentially was, that Kaylee did not have Pano.

 

[wrknnwf]

Before you worry too much, I would have your pup x-rayed by someone who knows how to do OFA or Penn Hip style x-rays at about 7 months. A board certified radiologist is who I'd go to.

Please take the following in the spirit intended...

The x-ray you posted does not appear to be positioned correctly. The spine is out of alignment which is twisting the hips to one side and may be temporarily pulling the left hip out of socket slightly.

When I print this off and measure the femur length, they appear to be the same. In fact, if you cut them out of the paper, they are nearly mirror images of one another. Now, I know that's not very scientific but I don't see a significant difference.

Also, joint laxity in puppies is the norm, so I think you're jumping the gun a bit. Her long bones have not fully developed and her growth plates won't be closed until around 9 months and the rest of her skeletal system needs time to mature. Dogs can be prelimmed for HD at 6 or 7 months, but cannot have their final OFA x-rays done until they are 24 months. I believe Penn-Hip may be done at a younger age so you may want to look for a Penn-Hip specialist. There is or used to be some disagreement on whether or not Penn-hip positioning actually pulls the hips out of socket, but many do use Penn-Hip evaluations.

There are some other threads on this forum about correct positioning for x-rays so you might want to do a search for those. Try this one...http://www.newf.net/Forums/showthread.php?t=53422&highlight=hip+x-rays. Jeannies x-ray photo is a perfect example of correct positioning.

Also, many people do not recommend either TPO or TPLO surgery. A well conditioned dog can often live very comfortably with HD. So before you start worring yourself to death, find a good radiologist and make sure the x-rays are done right or get yet another opinion. Regular vets often recommend the surgery because...well, that's how they make a living. I AM NOT implying that your new vet is scamming you, I just want you to make a decision based on several opinions by specialists.

Finally, even the best, most respectable, top breeders cannot prevent HD or other orthopedic problems from cropping up in their lines. If you take a look at the OFA (www.offa.org) website and look at some of the most well known lines, you will find dogs with HD or other ortho problems. It's natural to want to blame someone, but unless this breeder is continually churning out pups with HD, just chalk it up to luck of the draw.

Good luck with your puppy, but don't worry just yet. :sunflower:

 

[ardeagold]

I agree with Jane completely. I know your new Vet has your pups best interests at heart (from what you've said about the thoroughness of the exam), but right now, I'd wait until the pup is older to see what's really going on. There's going to be a lot of laxity in a pup's joints, making things wonky for a while.

And..when it's time to xray, do go to a specialist. The pup isn't straight in the xray and that makes a world of difference.

Hopefully this, if it does turn out to be HD, won't require surgery, and she'll live a long, happy, pain free life....surgery free!

 

[nowhavethreebears]

Okay, Jane beat me to it. You can't really tell anything from the x-ray posted above because she is out of position. It's not the worst positioning I've seen, but it's certainly not correct.
GIve her time...Let her grow. When she reaches two years of age, if you still have concerns about her, take her to an orthopedic specialist who knows how to do the X-rays properly.
DON'T rush into surgery! Just stay on top of the situation. Sounds like you are doing fine with her.

 

[CaSHMeRe]

Thanks Jane, Donna, and Anita.

you certainly will help ease my mind this evening. with everything going on all at once, it just has gotten overwhelming and i just want her to be fixed already

watching her suffer, both with her digestive issues and watching her limp to and from using the potty and trying just walk around has really disheartened me.

i guess ... on a positive note. she devoured her chicken and rice this evening, and she seems to be in high spirits

thanks for all the help guys

 

[Honey Bear]

Lots of love and healing thoughts going out to your baby Kaylee.
I hope her tummy feels better soon and I hope that her hips turn out to be just fine.

 

[BluwaterNewfs]

Finally, even the best, most respectable, top breeders cannot prevent HD or other orthopedic problems from cropping up in their lines. If you take a look at the OFA (www.offa.org) website and look at some of the most well known lines, you will find dogs with HD or other ortho problems. It's natural to want to blame someone, but unless this breeder is continually churning out pups with HD, just chalk it up to luck of the draw.

Jane - I agree!

Going to darn my flame suit --

I am tired of people jumping to blame the breeder every time there is something wrong with their dog. But you as the buyer are also responsible, what kind of research did you do on the breeder and their dogs? Did you check on OFA for clearances? Did you read the contract BEFORE you signed it. If you don't like the breeders policies, then talk to them see if they will change them or don't buy the puppy from them. And it doesn't matter what the breed is - I do believe this applies as a general rule when getting any breed of dog.

One thing people looking for a puppy of any breed, need to understand, is that a reputable breeder is someone who is doing their best to produce healthy puppies. This means doing the health checks that are important for that breed. What also needs to be understood, is, that even if a breeder has done all these tests, it doesn't guarantee every puppy is going to be free of problems. What we, as good breeders, are trying to do is put the odds in our favor of a good out come. The only time you can guarantee a health issue will
not be produced is if there is a DNA test for it, and then you need to breed carefully making sure both sire and dam have the correct DNA result to not produce the problem. This has to be taken into consideration along with all the other factors, when deciding on a potential breeding pair. For Newfoundlands, the only we guarantee we can make is that your dog will not be affected by cystinuria and only if the test have been done on the parents.

A reputable breeder will always use a contract. They should be willing to take back the dog, if for any reason a buyer can no longer keep the dog. They should be able to prove they have done the health tests appropriate for the breed. IF you don't like the contract - blame the breeder later for there - you had the right to try to renegotiate or not buy the puppy because you didn't like the contract.

And again, I am sorry, but most importantly - you need to do the research up front, before you buy! If you didn't check the breeder out before hand, didn't check for the health clearances - well it's just as much your fault.

 

[Jeannie]

The first thing I thought was how off the x-rays were. The spine need to be straight otherwise it throws everything out of alignment.

Hope you get this little one well and on the road to a healthy life

If the insurance company finds out x-rays have been done they will want to see them and will consider this a pre-exsisting condition

 

[KatieB]

I have to agree big time with Joan and Jane on this one. Our Berner boy is from an extremely reputable breeder with wonderful lines who does everything she can to produce quality pups. Our boy was diagnosed with HD at 6 months and 2 surgeons recommended a TPO (TPO is for the hips by the way..TPLO is for the Knee and completely unrelated to HD). One surgeon said to let him grow and take a look at him in two years. Well at 2 years he OFA'd Excellent!! I'm not saying there is not a cause for the TPO surgery in some dogs, but please recheck your pup at 6 months and a year and see how she's developing. Our boy didn't have issue on manipulation and was not limping. He did require two shoulder surgeries and was the only one in his litter to have issues. Sometimes you just get that one puppy who doesn't turn out well.

As far as being upset with the breeder...well you did buy a Saint Bernard. It's a giant breed dog and one of the main issues is dysplasia. Regardless of how good or bad the breeder is it's likely that usually at least one dog in the litter will have some form of HD or other ortho issues if not more. That's the risk you take when you get one of these guys and it should be one that you're prepared to deal with ahead of time. If you did not like the contract that required you to get a replacement puppy then you should have gone elsewhere. Breeding is expensive and not every breeder can afford or should be required to pay for every issue that crops up with their puppies. The owners need to take responsibility for their new baby. Murpy's breeder did financially assist us, but it was not in the contract that she had to do so and we never asked her for a dollar. As far as I'm concerned once I buy that puppy it's my responsibility. So you can help yourself by going to a breeder who does everything possible to produce a healthy puppy, but I don't think it's fair to get so angry with the breeder when ortho issues are a known problem in the large breeds. They are not perfect and no dog being bred is perfect so you can't expect a perfect puppy all the time.

You probably won't be able to get health insurance for the HD as I'm sure your vet documented the radiographs and the issues she saw and explained to you. It's a lesson we learned and in the future make sure you get the insurance as soon as you get your puppy in case someting does crop up.

I know this is all a bit scary but just take it day by day. Get a good xray and an opinion from a vet who deals with giant breeds and their growth. Big hugs to you and your sweet girl!!!

 

[Sailorgirl]

I just want to add something to the Xray discussion. Early last winter Rita was limping, badly. Ran her into our regular vet clinic. Could not see our usual vet but saw another. She did a badly positioned Xray and declared that Rita had "severe" HD. She prescribed a special Science Diet kibble (surprise, surprise) and we were told to limit her activity and get her in a physical therapy program. It just didn't seem right to me and we sought a second opinion by someone who does a lot of OFA Xrays on Newfs. Well, long story short he told me we should send them to OFA because he thought they would come back excellent. They ended up Good, which I was still thrilled with.

Anyway, the point of all this is just to demonstrate the importance of a good Xray. I know how it feels to be told something like this how your head starts jumping to conclusions. You may want to consider joining the yahoo group Orthodogs, where you'll be able to search a lot of old posts on dogs diagnosed with HD.

I hope you get the diahrea figured out soon. Hudson had giardia and coccidia as a puppy. Two weeks of metronozal and a bland diet and he was good to go.

 

[charityd]

How is sweet Kaylee's tummy this morning? Any better?

I agree with many others above. Wait and see what happens as Kaylee develops and definitely don't rush into surgery as many vets like to recommend.

I'm sure this has been a major learning experience for you guys. Next time you choose a breeder you will know all of the questions to ask (there is an excellent sticky about this somewhere on this forum). I got my first Siberian Husky, Lincoln, from a backyard breeder when I was 21 years old. I didn't know anything about breeders and the right questions to ask. I thought I was doing good because I didn't get him from a pet store. The parents had clear hip xrays so I thought he would be a healthy puppy which he was for the most part. At about 5 months old he began to exhibit signs of a hereditary type of mange. It was very hard to treat and required giving him dip baths in something that smelled like turpentine and burned his skin. It was so heartbreaking to hear my baby cry week after week as we had to give him these baths. When I called the person I bought him from she admitted that some of the other pups ended up with mange also and she said that if we wanted to have him put down she would give us a pup from her next litter from a different mom that wasn't a carrier. I wanted to wring her neck through the phone. Like I would put my baby down because he had a skin problem? So, I made a big mistake in buying a pup from this person. And although I would never do that again I do not regret doing it that first time. I truly believe that Lincoln and I were meant to be together. He was my kindred spirit and one of the best friends I ever had during his 14 years and 3 months on this planet.

Please don't think of yourself as a failure because you are not. Your certainly have not failed Kaylee. I know you are doing everything you can to help her. She is a lucky little girl to have found you both and I am sure that you will find a way to make it through this. :hugs:

 

[zakatak]

Hi Guys!

First, the chicken/rice or beef/rice diet does work quickly on the runs - trust me! I've been there and back again. I fed Dudley 3 meals a day - he preferred the beef/rice over the chicken/rice. His poops cleared up pretty fast on that and Metro.

As for the hips, I can't say much as we have never had a problem with our GSD and Dudley is still little.

I can talk a bit on the Pet Insurance though - so I'll look for your other post. If I can't find it, I'll come back here.

Kisses from Dudley! He hopes Kaylee feels better soon!

 

[zakatak]

Ok, I couldn't find the thread on Pet Insurance so I'll just send a PM to ya!