OFA question

[kastle]

Hopefully, someone has some insight for me to pass on. A close friend of mine has a 7 month old newf. She bought her from a breeder somewhere in CT but I don't think it was a reputable breeder.

She had her newfs. hips x-rayed while she was under anesthesia getting spayed (6 months). The vet was a little concerned about one of her hips but didn't want to give her a definite answer because it's not his specialty. Luckily, an ortho. vet from Tufts comes in once a month and looks at all the x-rays to give his opinion. She hasn't heard anything yet but she's already thinking the worst and figuring she'll need hip surgery.

My question is, is 6 months too young to really know what the hips are going to do? Aren't most x-rays done at 2 years?

My other questions is...If there is, at 6 months old, a noticeable problem with her hips, does she have any legal recourse with this breeder? She saved all her emails stating that her dogs are all OFA certified good. Unfortunately, this wouldn't be the only problem. Her pup had to have her lower baby canines pulled because of a severe over bite. When she talked to the breeder about it, she said that having her teeth pulled was abuse and if she did it, she would come and take the dog back. Needless to say, is was done after the teeth started breaking because of the pressure being put on them. Because they were pulled early enough, her lower jaw was able to grow out to almost normal. She also has had 2 UTI's and gets skin infections extremely easily. Every time she gets wet, she has to be completely dried or she'll get an infection.

She wants to confront this breeder about all the problems because she's extremely ticked off. She feels as though she should be given some of the money she paid for the dog back because she doesn't think this breeder was truthful with the information she gave her. She definitely knows that she does not want to give the dog back. Any advice?

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

Ok, first of all why was she spaying at 6 months. We usually recommend waiting for 1 heat season as spaying too early can lead to future structural issues. Also what is seem on an xray at 6 mo can be premature and that is why OFA checks are done at 2 yrs when the hips are mature and the growth plates are closed. If the breeder said her dogs were OFA Good, that is public knowledge and can be looked up on the OFA site. http://www.offa.org/ Even if they are, there are no guarantees that the pups will be too.

As far as the teeth go, if pulling the teeth will correct the bite or prevent a continual problem, then the teeth should be pulled. She could get a note from the vet stating that the teeth pulling is what is recommended and what would happen if the teeth are not removed and the damage it could cause in the future. She could pass along the letter to the breeder. Again, regardless of the bite of the parents of the pup, there can be a pup with a bad bite.

UTIs can be common in newf pups. Antibiotics will clear it up in a few days and usually is not much of a problem for the pup or owner once it is medicated.

Some newf pups do have sensitive skin and drying any newf after it gets wet, is highly recommended. Medicated shampoos can help too.

The breeder may or may not be the most reputable, but your friend needs to do more research on the breed as many of the issues she is having are not that unusual even with a pup from a reputable breeder. Why doesn't she join NN?

 

[dblsr]

I totally agree with Lynn, your friend needs more education. The breeder has done nothing wrong, assuming she really did have her dogs OFA'd. 6 months is way too young to have x-rays done on her puppies hips, and way to young to be spayed. Tell her we would welcome her here on NN.
Getting ticked off at her breeder and demanding her money back will only cause bad feelings between them. She probably needs to read her contract, I don't think she has one good reason to think she should get her money back. There may even be something in the contract about waiting until the dog is a year old, or waiting until after the first season before spaying.

 

[kastle]

Thank you for the info. I will definitely pass it on to her. Unfortunately, my friend doesn't have a lot of newf. experience. When she quickly decided that was the dog for her, she asked me what questions she should ask a breeder. My response to her was that if she didn't know what questions to ask a breeder than she wasn't ready to look for the newf and needed to start reading some books and go to some newf. events. This is the first dog she has ever owned and it all happened extremely fast. She decided that she wanted a newf. puppy NOW! Instead of taking the time to research the breed and find a good breeder, she went with the first person that had puppies that lived in close proximity to her. Don't get me wrong, she really loves this dog but has done things in a way I don't particularly agree with. I think she may be regretting things a bit because she calls me more and more asking if I could take her for a day or two so she could have a break and she keeps saying that she can't believe how much work it is. She doesn't want to hear what I have to say so I just keep my mouth shut. We've had a few blowouts when I've told her how I felt about things. I have a feeling that sooner or later she'll be coming to live with me permanantly so I'm trying to keep our friendship going so that she doesn't end up on craigslist instead.

 

[dblsr]

She probably will have to take the dog back to the breeder if she gives her up. Tell her to read her contract. It's a good thing to stay friends with her so you can make sure she does the right thing. It sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[janices]

She needs to read the conditions of her contract. Not much can do depending on what the contract says.

I advise people to read their contract and if you're not comfortable with the conditions in contract may want to rethink decision on buying.

 

[Angela]

Does she even have a contract from the breeder?

 

[kastle]

Nope, no contract at all. When she told me she was having Lucy spayed, I told her she seemed a little young and to read her contract to find out what the breeder suggests. Her response was... what contract?

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

If there is no contract, and you are willing to take her, it sounds like that would work best for all involved. You are wise to see what is down the road for this pup, and help out for the pup's best interest.

 

[dblsr]

Yikes, no contract, then please stay in touch with her, because it sounds like that little girl is going to need your help

 

[ardeagold]

I agree. Sometimes you need to bite your tongue and just step in and help out for the dog's sake. If she seems like she's overwhelmed, decides that the pup is too much for her, and you can't take the puppy for the long term, you might be able to get her to turn the pup over to Newf rescue for your area.

Stay in touch with us here, and if you need help, or she needs help...just holler. I'm sure there are many up in the NE who can guide you through the steps.

I see you're in MA, so you're in an area where there are a lot of Newf people who can help your friend (and the pup)...and you. Don't hesitate to talk to her about how she's feeling and let her know you're there for the pup if she needs you.

 

[Sierra Newfs]

My question is, is 6 months too young to really know what the hips are going to do? Aren't most x-rays done at 2 years?

She wants to confront this breeder about all the problems because she's extremely ticked off. She feels as though she should be given some of the money she paid for the dog back because she doesn't think this breeder was truthful with the information she gave her. She definitely knows that she does not want to give the dog back. Any advice?

The OFA has information on HD at: http://www.offa.org/hipinfo.html From the section Preliminary Evaluations: "Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months).

*Corley, EA, et al. Reliability of Early Radiographic Evaluation for Canine Hip Dysplasia Obtained from the Standard Ventrodorsal Radiographic Projection. JAVMA. Vol 211, No. 9, November 1997."

It's easier said than done, but your friend should wait until a board-certified vet radiologist has a look before worrying too much. If the radiographs were done digitally, or if she can obtain a copy, it wouldn't be a bad idea to submit them to OFA for evaluation. *If* there is a problem, I would want to know how the shoulders and elbows look before deciding on a course of treatment.

Your friend should discuss conservative/medical treatment options with her vet. Maintaining a dog at a healthy weight, the use of chondroprotective agents, such as glucosamine, pain management (as needed), and maintaing good muscle tone from appropriate exercise can make a huge difference in the dog's comfort. I've liked Debbie Gross Saunder's DVD, "Osteoarthritis and Your Dog" http://wizofpaws.net/osteoarthritis-and-your-dog.aspx and "Building the Canine Athlete" DVD from Chris Zink, DVM, Ph.D. and Laurie McCauley, DVM http://www.caninesports.com/dvd.html for getting my dogs in good condition.

The ACVS has a good outline of options at:
http://www.acvs.org/AnimalOwners/HealthConditions/SmallAnimalTopics/HipDysplasiainDogs/

Your friend should decide what she wants from the breeder (advice/support, an apology, a full or partial refund, etc.) before contacting the breeder with documentation of the health issues the puppy has experienced. Nothing satisfactory may come of this request to the breeder, but it helps to be prepared. Most Newf puppy contracts address hip dysplasia only when it is crippling (usually defined as a severe OFA rating or unable to function as a pet). Good breeders will tend to go beyond the contract to do the right thing, but their needs to be realistic expectations on both sides.

Good thoughts for you, your friend, and the puppy.

 

[Ginny]

Tell her not to freak out about the vet's impression of the pup's hips. If a dog isn't positioned properly, good hips can look to be 'not so good'. Hopefully, the Tuft's vet will comment if the positioning isn't right. Unfortunately, OFA tends not to return x-rays for poor positioning and reads what they see... If the pup's hips are truly bad, they won't improve, but she can strengthen the muscles by swimming her before the cold weather sets in.

I hope she's listening to you about her being too young to spay. Osteoscarcoma is associated with early spay and neuter. I sure wish more vets would take the time to keep up with the issues of giant breeds...

Good luck.

 

[NewfMom]

I see your friend already had the dog spayed at 6 months and that was when the x-rays were done. You didn't mention why your friend had the x-rays done.

We had our first newf spayed at 6 months 12 years ago. We also had hip x-rays done then. In our case it was because our newf had gone lame the day before her surgery. In her case there were major, instantly obvious issues with her hips.

That being said, if the vet only saw a possible minor problem, I wouldn't worry too much. A lot of them do improve as they grow. Your friend might want to use suppliments for the pup and make sure she gets good exercise, especially swimming. A lot of dogs who have things show up on their x-rays live good long healthy lives.

Our girl who's joints (hips, knees, and elbows) were a train wreck, still lived 10 happy years thanks to our excellent vets and was a therapy dog who brought joy into many hearts.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Yep..you need to keep in close contact with her because it sounds to me like both her breeder and her vet are..um...questionable. This is the third time in the last month that I have heard of people being talked into having puppy teeth removed ...supposedly to prevent a bad bite...and it's being completely ignored that it's not uncommon for puppy teeth to be retained and most of the time...a good tuff chew toy is all that is needed. It's common in tiny breeds for the puppy teeth to develop into a "shark mouth" and not fall out, but really, not common at all in large breeds..so I'd be VERY cautious about vets that get in a hurry to pull puppy teeth UNLESS I could actually see evidence of it damaging the roof of the mouth or something similar. Puppy teeth are NOT that deeply rooted, and I find it very unlikely that they were "stopping the jaw from growing". Further...if the hips are so marginal that he needs someone else to look at the xrays...they probably are not all that bad. Most vets are quite capable of telling if hips are bad although they would not have the expertise to "rate" them in the same way that a radiologist would.

 

[kastle]

I got a call from my friend last night. The Tufts vet looked at the hip xrays. I really don't know what information he gave her (through her current vet) but all she said was that Lucy needed hip surgery. I'm a little worried because she's ready to schedule the surgery without even getting a second and third opinion. I suggested that she go and pick up the xrays. It would be interesting to see if she is positioned correctly. She doesn't show any symptoms but does walk a little funny. Suppose her hips look horrible, do I support her decision to have the TPO done (I'm guessing that is what they are suggesting). I'm trying to arm myself with as much information as possible so that I can hopefully convince her to do the right thing. For all you Massachusetts people out there, where else should she go for opinions? Tufts is a great place but I have my issues with them. Having an ortho. med/surg background, I know these guys like to cut and play with power tools when ever they can.

I honestly wish I could talk her into giving me the dog. A while back I vented about this same woman getting a 2 year old newf. from a rescue. Well, that didn't work out because she decided she wanted a puppy instead. She acts like she loves her animals but doesn't appreciate them and thinks they are disposable. I'm afraid she is going to finally decided that she is done dealing with Lucy. It drives me crazy. She really isn't the type of person I would choose as a friend. More like a friend my default.

 

[padkins]

Does she even have any idea how much surgery is going to cost and what type of care will be required? That might deter her a little from jumping into surgery until another opinion can be gathered. Hope that you can help. :angel:

 

[Ginny]

This pup is 6 months, correct? She still has a lot of growing to do. I'd be very hesitant to jump to surgery if she isn't symptomatic. A second opinion is definitely in order. If I were you, I'd be trying desperately to convince her that Newfs are just not the breed for her. Hopefully she won't need a third strike to come to that conclusion.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

Could you offer to have the xrays looked at by your vet in an effort to convince her a second opinion is necessary and surgery may not be the best approach now for this pup. If she is a frustrated with the issues this pup is having, I am surprised she is jumping into an expensive surgery, and rehabilitation, when it may not be necessary. You might tell her about the rehab process and expense of that, so she doesn't think the pup will be good as new the day after surgery.

 

[kastle]

Well, this woman is (how should I say this) a princess. She gets whatever she wants. Money isn't really an issue for her which is probably why she feels as though everything can be traded in for something better. I printed a bunch of info. on the surgery for her so she can see for herself how much rehab. it's going to be. Then again, she'll probably try to hire someone to rehab the dog so she doesn't have to. She has 2 kids, 3 aupair's. Did I mention she doesn't work? Explain that? I really want to get my hands on the xrays.