Hips are about more than just an xray evaluation. Excluding obvious bad hips. Question for you experienced breeders that have seen an inconsistant hip evaluation in your dog. If you kept the dog, what did you observe concerning the dog and his/her hips in everyday life? Did you observe anything from watching the dog get about in reality that would make you side with one result over the other? And what did the dog tend to produce more of in their offspring if bred in your opinion? Good hips, bad hips? And this by xray and real life observation. What I am trying to ask is for those breeders who have been doing this along time, have you observed in the real world things about your dogs and their offspring that have given you the impression that their hips are actually fine despite an xray result of not so or vice versa and over the life of the dogs? Please don't get me wrong. Xrays are important and should continue, but I believe there are other observations that are also important and can be used in the evaluation of a dog's hips. And what is on an xray may not necessarily play out in real life. Two dogs that clear excellent through OFA and go on to produce bad hips in their direct offspring I think testify to that. Those that work your dogs in everyday life, I would really be interested in your opinion also. I hope this made sense.
OFA problems.....
- Thread starter Windancer
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Sun Valley
New member
Hi,
I have a bitch that will not clear hips. They are not bad, but I know she won't clear. You would never know by watching her that she won't clear...she runs, jumps and spends more time on two legs then all 4..She has never limped or struggled to get up.
She will be bred as she is clear on everything else, and has breed type to die for....if she produces bad hips, I won't breed her again.
I would never throw a dog out of my breeding program because they didn't pass one health clearance.
I also bred to a dog with no clearances and they were some of the healthiest puppies I ever produced and what I kept all cleared hips and elbows.
That's my opinion on hip clearances...
Lou Ann
I have a bitch that will not clear hips. They are not bad, but I know she won't clear. You would never know by watching her that she won't clear...she runs, jumps and spends more time on two legs then all 4..She has never limped or struggled to get up.
She will be bred as she is clear on everything else, and has breed type to die for....if she produces bad hips, I won't breed her again.
I would never throw a dog out of my breeding program because they didn't pass one health clearance.
I also bred to a dog with no clearances and they were some of the healthiest puppies I ever produced and what I kept all cleared hips and elbows.
That's my opinion on hip clearances...
Lou Ann
BluwaterNewfs
New member
A number of years ago I attended a breeding seminar given by NewPenDel. The main speakers were members of NCA Breeder's Education committee. If I remember correctly, panel consisted of Ingrid Lyden, Peggy Helming, Betty McDonnell & Sue Jones.
Two things that has always stuck in my head was said at this seminar "Put the best the bitch you can in the [whelping] box" and the other thing is "You need to look at the whole picture not just a piece. If most of the dog (or bitch) is something good, you can look past what isn't what we want"
That being said, we all know nothing is perfect. Most of us know of a top show & producing dog that did not pass OFA hips - he certainly had most if not all of everything else that people were looking to breed to and was bred to many times as were his sons. We also know know that a number of his get have been shown to be top dogs also.
For me the moral is "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water".
I think Lou Ann had some valid points.
Two things that has always stuck in my head was said at this seminar "Put the best the bitch you can in the [whelping] box" and the other thing is "You need to look at the whole picture not just a piece. If most of the dog (or bitch) is something good, you can look past what isn't what we want"
That being said, we all know nothing is perfect. Most of us know of a top show & producing dog that did not pass OFA hips - he certainly had most if not all of everything else that people were looking to breed to and was bred to many times as were his sons. We also know know that a number of his get have been shown to be top dogs also.
For me the moral is "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water".
I think Lou Ann had some valid points.
Angela
Super Moderator
Rona, my first Newf who came from OFA good parents was dysplastic though asymptomatic. Was diagnosed on his OFA Xrays.
He swam, got his Draft dog titles, Canadian U.D, American CDX, Water titles.
He was a hyper Newf! and therefore had to be walked at least one mile before going into an obedience trial. He lived to work.
Looking back on it so many years later I thinik that because he had so much exercise he was so well muscled.
cedarvalleynewfoundlands
New member
We have a girl who is 90th percentile on PennHip/ OFA prelim normal on elbows and cleared by a Cardiologist on hearts.
What we first noticed was that she was producing heart puppies.
After the first litter had a mild SAS confirmed by Doppler at 15 weeks, we Dopplered her and she was clear. We bred her again to a different Sire...this time had several mild SAS puppies. We removed her from our breeding program as soon as that happened. Now that her pups are getting older, we have heard from 2 people who have puppies with prelim OFA severe hips and grade 3 elbows....and those are from the litter we used Clayton as the Sire who is also a 90th percentile PennHip/OFA Good Prelim.
No rhyme or reason, as both Dam and Sire had very good hips, but something in her background was causing this, since we never saw anything like that out of anybody else.
Dont understand it, except there must be some recessive gene lurking somewhere.
What we first noticed was that she was producing heart puppies.
After the first litter had a mild SAS confirmed by Doppler at 15 weeks, we Dopplered her and she was clear. We bred her again to a different Sire...this time had several mild SAS puppies. We removed her from our breeding program as soon as that happened. Now that her pups are getting older, we have heard from 2 people who have puppies with prelim OFA severe hips and grade 3 elbows....and those are from the litter we used Clayton as the Sire who is also a 90th percentile PennHip/OFA Good Prelim.
No rhyme or reason, as both Dam and Sire had very good hips, but something in her background was causing this, since we never saw anything like that out of anybody else.
Dont understand it, except there must be some recessive gene lurking somewhere.
ardeagold
New member
I think that possibly both parents carried the gene for it.
However, that's not necessarily so either. Not all genetic issues are atosomal recessive, like Cystinuria is. Cystinuria is pretty easy to eliminate from the gene pool with a simple DNA test and proper breeding.
Unfortunately, even when they do make DNA tests available for some of the other inherited issues, there still will be some breeding questions since some of the diseases *might* be genetic disorders carried by only one parent...and may or may not pass on to a certain percentage of offspring. These are single-gene disorders.
http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec01/ch002/ch002c.html
You have to wonder how many dogs in the gene pool (of any breed) have the gene for at least one genetic disorder...and what do you do with those dogs? Eliminate them from the gene pool altogether (via sterilization)? How many dogs will be left to breed if you do that?
Right now there aren't many DNA tests, but many are on the horizon...which will make breeding very complex. I'd think that as with humans, a huge number of dogs will carry genes for *possibly* passing on genetic problems. I wonder if that will give rise to genetic counseling, prior to breeding?
However, that's not necessarily so either. Not all genetic issues are atosomal recessive, like Cystinuria is. Cystinuria is pretty easy to eliminate from the gene pool with a simple DNA test and proper breeding.
Unfortunately, even when they do make DNA tests available for some of the other inherited issues, there still will be some breeding questions since some of the diseases *might* be genetic disorders carried by only one parent...and may or may not pass on to a certain percentage of offspring. These are single-gene disorders.
http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec01/ch002/ch002c.html
You have to wonder how many dogs in the gene pool (of any breed) have the gene for at least one genetic disorder...and what do you do with those dogs? Eliminate them from the gene pool altogether (via sterilization)? How many dogs will be left to breed if you do that?
Right now there aren't many DNA tests, but many are on the horizon...which will make breeding very complex. I'd think that as with humans, a huge number of dogs will carry genes for *possibly* passing on genetic problems. I wonder if that will give rise to genetic counseling, prior to breeding?
Pipelineozzy
New member
I've never been in the position to use a dog with bad hips...the lowest I have ever used was an OFA fair. But I did have a dysplastic Newf years ago...and my observation is that old age came earlier to that dog, in that it gave up activities that my other dogs carried on with until they were 10 and 11 years old. The dysplastic dog aged faster, because once the arthritis set in, she stopped being as active, and that had a negative impact on her overall health. I think it's very safe to say that you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...but...the decision to use a dog that has bad hips has to be based on solid judgement in that the dog in question must be a truly outstanding representative of the breed to make that decision worthy. And I think that is even MORE important when selecting a stud dog, simply because the number of progeny they are capable of producing means that the impact genetically can be very great. There is also degrees of abnormality that need to be taken into consideration, as there is a difference between a loose hip and a hip with a very shallow socket and remodelling...
Ivoryudx
New member
For those dogs with clear everything, that produce bad hips, elbows or whatever....
How many of the siblings of the parents are clear?
I know it isn't the absolute answer, and I agree there is no perfect anything. Heck zero really isn't zero in real life, but I also believe that a strong verticle pedigree will increase those offsprings chances of being clear.
When talking about actually breeding a dog with any disorder of any kind we have to keep in mind that it is always reproduced eventually. This includes poor ear set, eye color, etc. So when breeding a dog that is effected (not Cystinuria or SAS), you go into that breeding knowing that some offspring somewhere will be effected as well. It might be second or third generation, and hopefully not severely, but breeding an effected dog mathematical increases the odds of throwing that to its pups. Not that the clear dogs can't produce it at all, I'm just pointing out that the effected dogs increase the math odds.
I agree you don't throw the baby out with the bath water but lets be clear here of a specific detail of what we're discussing. If someone is talking about one generation of breeding an effected dog (not cystinuria or SAS) it is not the same as someone doing it multiple generations. That is what we see with BYB's and puppy mills who do no testing or have no reguard for what they breed. Rescue has far too many of multiple generation poorly bred dogs to point to as poor examples of bad breeding decisions.
How many of the siblings of the parents are clear?
I know it isn't the absolute answer, and I agree there is no perfect anything. Heck zero really isn't zero in real life, but I also believe that a strong verticle pedigree will increase those offsprings chances of being clear.
When talking about actually breeding a dog with any disorder of any kind we have to keep in mind that it is always reproduced eventually. This includes poor ear set, eye color, etc. So when breeding a dog that is effected (not Cystinuria or SAS), you go into that breeding knowing that some offspring somewhere will be effected as well. It might be second or third generation, and hopefully not severely, but breeding an effected dog mathematical increases the odds of throwing that to its pups. Not that the clear dogs can't produce it at all, I'm just pointing out that the effected dogs increase the math odds.
I agree you don't throw the baby out with the bath water but lets be clear here of a specific detail of what we're discussing. If someone is talking about one generation of breeding an effected dog (not cystinuria or SAS) it is not the same as someone doing it multiple generations. That is what we see with BYB's and puppy mills who do no testing or have no reguard for what they breed. Rescue has far too many of multiple generation poorly bred dogs to point to as poor examples of bad breeding decisions.
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Sound Bay Newfs
Active member
OFA is a great testing program to select out genetic problems so they won't continue in the breed, in theory. But genetics is not an exact science and should be more of a guide when selecting breeding stock. I have heard about displasic pups from parents with great OFA tests and healthy pups from displasic parents. Unfortunately some look at just the OFA results and ultimately there are some dogs weeded out of a breeding program that might have been a good selection. Rona, I have seen dogs with not the best health clearances that show no signs at all of a problem. So IMO, OFA results should be a part of deciding if a dog is going to be bred but not that exclusively as long as they are in the acceptable range. There is still so much about genetics that we do not know.
I have a 13 yr old yellow Lab. Her dams hips were OFA good, so she was bred to a male that had OFA good hips also. Many of the pups were displasic. For her next litter (the litter my pup was from) she was bred to a male with excellent hips as the breeder was trying to get healthy pups and breed out the displasia problem. My pup was very active and healthy, but the breeder asked to have her xrayed, so I did. Surprisingly she had one bad hip. She continued to be asymptomatic and active until she was about 11. Had she not been xrayed, I would never know there was a problem. It would seem that even though her parents had very good health clearances, somehow the dam was throwing displasic pups. The breeder did not breed her anymore.
I have a 13 yr old yellow Lab. Her dams hips were OFA good, so she was bred to a male that had OFA good hips also. Many of the pups were displasic. For her next litter (the litter my pup was from) she was bred to a male with excellent hips as the breeder was trying to get healthy pups and breed out the displasia problem. My pup was very active and healthy, but the breeder asked to have her xrayed, so I did. Surprisingly she had one bad hip. She continued to be asymptomatic and active until she was about 11. Had she not been xrayed, I would never know there was a problem. It would seem that even though her parents had very good health clearances, somehow the dam was throwing displasic pups. The breeder did not breed her anymore.
BluwaterNewfs
New member
Unless you have a DNA test like you have for cystinuria, you cannot guarantee you not produce the problem in future generations. Until the genetic transfer of any given trait is understood, you can not tell for sure, what you will get.
By breeding dogs that demostrate the 'good trait', we are hopefully, putting the odds in our favor we are going to reproduce the good and not bad trait. Does NOT guarantee it.
Yes, the more people that register their results for their dogs' health results in an open database like OFA, whether the dog is part of a breeding program or not, it will be helpful. That means getting our puppy buyers to do the health checks too. Not an easy task. Some don't see the need since they are not going to breed their dog and don't want to spend the money. Unfortunately some of these are same people that will blame the breeder when the dog comes up with problems.
By breeding dogs that demostrate the 'good trait', we are hopefully, putting the odds in our favor we are going to reproduce the good and not bad trait. Does NOT guarantee it.
Yes, the more people that register their results for their dogs' health results in an open database like OFA, whether the dog is part of a breeding program or not, it will be helpful. That means getting our puppy buyers to do the health checks too. Not an easy task. Some don't see the need since they are not going to breed their dog and don't want to spend the money. Unfortunately some of these are same people that will blame the breeder when the dog comes up with problems.
Sun Valley
New member
Susan has made some excellent points, especially with the mills and BYB, even though I am seeing more and more of them doing health clearances. But with such a mish mash of pedigree's, they are breeding 'pets' that shouldn't be bred, regardless of their clearances.
The OFA vertical pedigree is great, but I think it will always be skewed unless every dog in a litter is x-rayed.
A DNA test would be wonderful to identify carriers of Orthopedic and cardiac problems, but will I see it in my lifetime? I have to add, that I would never breed any Newf with a known heart problem.
Lou Ann
BluwaterNewfs
New member
Lou Ann -
You are so right! I agree with 100%!
You are so right! I agree with 100%!
Pipelineozzy
New member
Exactly, and to negate the importance of clearing something like hips can eventually lead to the attitude "Well, clear dogs can produce bad hips, so why bother". Which is a very slippery slope. We know that by consistently using cleared dogs we increase the odds dramatically of producing clear....and it has to be a pretty outstanding dog to be worth reintroducing the genetics and risking a step backwards.
Thank you all for taking the time to answer my question. Genetic testing when it becomes available will be tremendous (although all is not yet understood about DNA). Until that time though, I think breeder experience is very valuable. I don't think OFA or other such organizations can tell the whole story when it comes to joints.
Sun Valley
New member
Largo you are 100% right!
LA
LA
Oh and to be clear. I think testing is very important. I was speaking of those dogs that are tested for a hip clearance, but do not have a consensus opinion on the reading of those x rays and or inconsistent results with subsequent x rays. What is a breeder to do with an otherwise healthy valuable (to the breed) dog? This is where I think a breeder's experience carries weight.
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Sun Valley
New member
We talk about hip clearances..what about elbows?
LA
LA
Piratebears
New member
We had our X Rays sent back from the K.C here in England . . .I have them on my wall ! lol
