Inbreeding

[KatieB]

We pay $68 a month for all 3 dogs with Embrace. In the past year (thanks to Murphy the Berner) Embrace has paid us $4000 in claims. So in just one year our insurance paid out 58 months or almost 5 years of monthly premiums.

Back to the topic!!

 

[ardeagold]

Actually, I think Cole is more like $28 per month. It's the older ones who have gotten more expensive. Mira and Molly are now 6.

 

[Jorge's mum]

I had to sign a contract with both Jorge and Stanley stating I had to provide pet insurance for at least the first 2 years, all mine are insured and will be throughout their lives

 

[janices]

I have European dogs with mostly American lines. I do not see much of a difference in breeding styles between the breeders that I deal with in Europe and American Breeders. Most European breeders breed dogs with American lines.
I feel that the type and structure in this breed is getting worse and worse as time goes on. It is pretty scary to say the least.

Just got my World of Newfoundlands book in yesterday and reading the articles. Things I have to agree on from the articles on changes in type and the changes in type are not being punished in the show rings. The changes are threatening the working dog. Newfs with the shorter head type are prone to respiratory problems which threatens the working dog's endurance. There are other points in type versus standard that seem to be echo'd across that I tend to agree with.

Unfortunately as I'm out water training, working with working newfs and see what people are dealing with in training and out in the rings now, I have to wonder.

Just mulling today.

 

[NessaM]

Without being a breeder or a geneticist, I'm looking through the glass darkly here. Donna raised some great points about environmental factors influencing the health of dogs completely apart from their breeding - and perhaps environmental factors are why we are seeing a surge in health issues like laryngeal paralysis.

I'm also with Janice. I prefer the less over-done heads - and I think some of the changes in structure can affect the working ability of the dog - which is why it is wonderful that the NCA has, and promotes, the Versatile Newf designation. I wonder what the show dogs would look like if they had to achieve their water and draft titles before trying for their conformation championship. For one thing, I'd be willing to bet that their coats would be a bit more manageable! Because no one in their right mind would want to try and maintain those insanely thick coats all summer long during water rescue training and testing!

And in the immortal words of a handler overheard at a show, after another bitch took first over hers, "I hope [that judge] needs that bitch he put up to save him someday. Because he will DROWN."

 

[ardeagold]

For one thing, I'd be willing to bet that their coats would be a bit more manageable! Because no one in their right mind would want to try and maintain those insanely thick coats all summer long during water rescue training and testing!

True. Cole's coat is actually very easy to maintain because he has about 1/2 as much as many Newfs in the ring. He FINALLY got rear feathers that reach his hocks...at the age of 3. His body hair is sleek, short and correct. He does have a lot of chest hair and front leg feathers (he's such a manly-man LOL), but all in all his coat is perfect for swimming. It dries pretty quickly too...unlike some of our others.

His head, however, is more of the "newer", more typey style. He can swim well, and retrieve well, and is STRONG in and out of the water...so now all Momma has to do it get him out there. How I wish there were some people to train with locally. They're far and few between around here.

Conditioning makes a huge difference too. That cannot be empathized enough. So many dogs only get out to run and swim intermittently or on weekends. Even those without excellent natural athletic ability do much better when they're "buff". They NEED to run, and play, and swim, and run some more, every day. Having lots of dogs helps us keep ours that way. Even Molly, who is quite the couch potato, gets out every day and races around and around. She has other dogs keeping her motivated. But if there are no other dogs...humans need to do it.

A dog can't be expected to swim for hours retrieving items...haul a boat...haul a person or two...without being in shape.

I suspect many "can" do the job, no matter what their "type" is, but some just don't have the conditioning needed to do it. Granted, to some it's natural, and they have the innate drive, but they still have to be in excellent condition to do it.

I believe the intense "drive" is genetic, as is the ease of doing the job, but I also believe that as long as there is a desire (and the dog MUST like doing what it's doing), and there aren't any serious structural issues, if a Newf is conditioned properly ... it can do what's required. Maybe not spectacularly, or for hours on end, but many can achieve those working titles.

 

[NessaM]

Nanook has a LOT of coat. It's thick, it's long, (like a yak!), and it doesn't blow the way Pooka's does in the spring - I have to remove his undercoat laboriously with thinning shears, an MCK, or a rake. I think, consequently, he gets hot spots much more frequently.

Pooka has a coat like you described on your Cole - short, sleek guard hairs, plush but short undercoat, in the spring he loses that plush undercoat in big tufts, dries quickly, and he doesn't get hotspots. I vastly prefer his coat to Nanook's!

 

[KatieB]

Coats do change when you alter them. Was Nanooks coat like that before he was neutered?? Bella's coat was very nice before she was spayed. It's awful now. Have to pull out the undercoat chunk by chunk it just doesn't blow out like Mojo's. Mojo doesn't have a lot of coat but it is beautiful and so easy to care for. Dries quickly and never mats. He practically shakes and is dry. His is the opposite of Bella..could be because he's intact and she is not. Bella's coat just sucks in the water and holds it. That being said she is a much better swimmer than Mojo so it's not all in the coat. She can swim circles around Moj.

 

[sarnewfie]

Anyone with Altered dogs should get a high velocity dryer. To heck with this tool and that one. Blast them with the K-911 dryer and they are good to go.Altered animals coats change within 6 months to a year post alter. You will notice a huge difference in coat.
Unaltered dogs have low maintenance coats granted they are not from lines that are bred for EXCESSIVE coat.
I have always agreed with Janices and continue to do so.

 

[ardeagold]

Anyone with Altered dogs should get a high velocity dryer. To heck with this tool and that one. Blast them with the K-911 dryer and they are good to go.Altered animals coats change within 6 months to a year post alter. You will notice a huge difference in coat.
Unaltered dogs have low maintenance coats granted they are not from lines that are bred for EXCESSIVE coat.
I have always agreed with Janices and continue to do so.

Doesn't always work C. I have a high velocity dryer, and could blow Addie and Molly for hours straight and get a baggie full of hair versus trash bags full with the others.

The dander and dirt would be gone, but not the hair. LOL Even stripping it out with a MKC and line combing doesn't work well except during normal "shedding" times. It's IN there to stay. Obviously it isn't undercoat. It's just "coat". The undercoat will come out, but there's a lot less of that than top coat.

But yes...altering does change the coat, especially in females. Molly had an excellent coat. Very correct. Now she's got 10x more than she had.

 

[sarnewfie]

You can comb or brush out what loosens up from the dryer,. it does help. much better then the labor of hours of combing and combing and much healthier for the skin. i was a groomer for many years and even the most stubborn of spay coats the dryer was used even if i had to use it for 2 hours on a dog. it did help.
Also a snap on comb over a 30 blade to think that yak coat is a wonderful tool!!

 

[R Taft]

This was good....Again I learned a lot, especially thank you Donna for all thise links. I have hundreds of links from you I am forever learning here on NN.

The one thing I totally agree with is Insurance Mine are insured. We have only taken coverage out for the big stuff. we pay the first $450.00 per year on each dog. It reduced our monthly bill to $52.00 per month and covers up to $20,000.00 per year and once you are a member as long as you pay the monthly fee, you cannot loose your cover

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

A "spayed bitch coat" sure can be thicker and more dense than that of an intact newf. Also there is more of a trend and awareness to spay and neuter early, so there are more altered dogs today than years ago. That may account for why some have asked how did people manage a newf's coat without a dryer or thinning shears, years ago.

So new veterinary practices, modern grooming tools, coat supplements, have some influence on our breeds "new look" and coat type.

As Sar said, dryers do keep heavy coats more manageable and skin healthy.
--

 

[Pipelineozzy]

I don't know..I can't convince myself that the trend to longer and heavier coats is because of spaying or anything like that..altered dogs are not the ones in the ring. The excessive coat, in my opinion, is more of a show issue ...bred for the ring...

I HAVE a dog with that coat...beautiful when I can keep it groomed out..but a total disaster when he's "being a dog". He's not neutered, and he's fed the same as everyone else..he just has a genetically different coat. In the winter, he's a walking ice ball, because the incorrect coat gathers snow like a magnet...and in the summer, he suffers more from the heat than any of the others. The coat does not shed properly, the undercoat "felts" almost immediately, and it is too long.. the texture is made for the ring, not for a working dog. Fortunately, in spite of all that...at almost 8 years of age..he has NEVER had a hotspot...even when the coat has gotten away on me and he's a mess. I use the blower on him on a regular basis, with little success. Touch the others with the blower and you have a hair storm..him...just a bit comes out..and I'm back to raking, combing, teasing and begging the hair off his body. The result? He despises being groomed, it's a long and tedious procedure no matter how often you do it...and I would cringe at the thought of an inexperienced owner trying to deal with that hair.

 

[janices]

I don't know..I can't convince myself that the trend to longer and heavier coats is because of spaying or anything like that..altered dogs are not the ones in the ring. The excessive coat, in my opinion, is more of a show issue ...bred for the ring...

Yes, that's right. I've been in discussions about this coat before. Standard answer love the coat for show ring because it's easy to hide such and such. Those of us with the coats that's easy to keep working can't hide a dang thing in show ring.

IMO only, breeder's committment should be to keep the original purpose of the newfoundland which means when breeding the working newf. The same dog that goes in show ring should go in working rings with ease in every way.

Continuing to shorten the muzzle brings in changes to larynx, nostrils, palatum. Also changes to bite. There's nothing in standard about all the wrinkles. Square muzzles with this type not what's in standard. Muzzle and lips has a purpose in water work. Don't know how many mouths I open and look at bite and go yuk. Tending them to brachycephaly and changes the expression newf is supposed to have.

 

[Sun Valley]

Hey Janice and Cindy,

According to the standard which says:

Coat
The adult Newfoundland has a flat, water-resistant, double coat that tends to fall back into place when rubbed against the nap. The outer coat is coarse, moderately long, and full, either straight or with a wave.
----------------------------

The standard says moderately long coat...so please explain what you are referring to as a long coat?

The standard for the head says:

The muzzle is clean-cut, broad throughout its length, and deep. Depth and length are approximately equal, the length from tip of nose to stop being less than that from stop to occiput. The top of the muzzle is rounded, and the bridge, in profile, is straight or only slightly arched.

Janice, the standard most definitely mentions wrinkles.

I see plenty of short muzzled dogs that are in proportion with the rest of the head and that can work also.

IMO, and I'm sure this won't apply to Newfs that work, but what I dislike and seem to be seeing more and more are the longer muzzles with no depth or width to them and round, buggy light eyes.

Lou Ann

 

[ardeagold]

Don't know how many mouths I open and look at bite and go yuk.

That can happen with any muzzle. I have both "types" here and both have bites that could be better.

Cole (square head, short muzzle) has dropped lower center incisors, as does Mira who has more of the "old style" look. And...so does Molly, the Landseer, who has a beautiful head, nice muzzle (not too long or short).

The dropped lower incisors are acceptable per the breed standard, but many Judges who aren't "Newf people/breeders" don't like it and it can be a problem in the ring. (Has been for us, more than once). It doesn't "look" as nice as a perfect set of teeth but the bite is still correct as long as the others aren't out of alignment and are level or scissors.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

I also cannot STAND the round buggy eyes...and there are WAY too many of them here in Canada too. (Also saggy eyes...ewww.) And yes, our standard ALSO calls for a muzzle that is smooth and free of wrinkles. We differ in that we still do not put dropped incisors as being a minor deviation (and I actually agree with that not being in there, simply because I think the mouths are getting worse in the breed instead of better, and with a dental background..it makes sense to me that when the incisors are out of alignment...the rest of the teeth will follow eventually...esp when those mouths are bred together.) And because we don't recognize brown or grey...there is no mention of accepting a lighter eye either.
The coats I am referring to are coats where the body coat is more like the pantaloons and feathers...excessively long..not moderately long... and these coats do not fall back into place when brushed forward..simply because they are too long. I cannot find a reason in my mind to "justify" breeding more coat in...there is no advantage to the dog or it's purpose. Also, where the hair on the head is so long...that it's standing out like a halo. (I would have to re-read your standard on that point..I don't remember if head hair is even mentioned in your standard, but it is in ours.)

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

I haven't seen breeders actually breeding for coat type. Coat can be an individual trait from one dog to another even from the same lines. I have 4 newfs, that are all related, and all have different coats. A dog you see in the ring with a nice coat can look very different at home during the week. Breeders usually wait for the coat of a growing pup or adult to come in before showing them.

 

[ardeagold]

Breeders usually wait for the coat of a growing pup or adult to come in before showing them.

Guess that shows how much of a breeder I'm not! :roflmao:

Cole showed, and got his CH with few rear feathers! NOW they're reaching his hocks. But it took until he was 3 years old. However, after he got his CH, I've held him out specifically waiting for more rear feathers/furnishings. He looked half bald compared to many out there.

His coat is very different from many I've seen, and takes a long time to come in. It's still not long and draping underneath the stomach, and I doubt it ever will be.

Katie and I have had many conversations regarding both Cole's and Mojo's lack of coat, comparatively. (They're half brothers)

Mojo is an excellent Working Dog, and perhaps coat plays into that but his drive and attitude are what makes him so good, IMO. Cole has the same coat, but I don't believe he has the same working drive.