I need help with some serious decisions!

[Berwoods]

Hello All,
Willow is 10 months old. We are facing some serious decisions at this time.
1st, should we get her fixed? Her hips and eyes have checked out wonderful but she isn't a show dog. My parents bred rat terriers and I love raising puppies, but I know that Newf rearing is a lot different and you really shouldn't breed unless it benefits the group as a whole. So how do you decide? We need to decide soon so that she can be fixed early.
Also, we are considering getting Willow a playmate. We have heard that this is a big decision and can change the dynamic of the household. What has everyone elses experience been with this?
The decisions we make above will determine this one as well. My husband and I have decided we would like a male. If we breed, we need to pick a boy in about 6 months so the breeding time is right (no breeding until she is ATLEAST 2 years old, preferable 3 and he is 1, correct?) If we do, what should we look for in a male? Does champion lineage matter if we dont plan on showing him either? Sould we only breed if we get a male that we decide to show? If we dont breed, I really would like to rescue. Does anyone know of a way this would be possible?
Thanks for all your assistance with these decisions. All imput, opinions, and thoughts are highly valued! I know this decision can depend on the person, but Im sure a couple of Newf experts can help me here for sure! You guys have already been SO helpful!
All the best!

 

[ardeagold]

OK..I'd suggest you wait until she's 18+ mos to spay her. Or at least until after her second season (heat cycle). There are many posts in the health section about this. There have been a lot of studies re: cancer and spaying early. Spaying later is better. Plus you want her growth plates to close and that takes some time in Newfs. Hormones do serve a purpose in a growing pup (and she is a pup).

Also..you say her hips and eyes checked out? Have you had her hips xrayed? Hips/elbows cannot be cleared by OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) until the dog is 2 yrs old. However, preliminary xrays can be submitted after the age of one. That's because things change in a growing pup.

Thyroid, Eyes and Heart cannot be "cleared" until after the age of one.

Except for the thyroid test which would be sent out to a lab, usually at the Michigan State University, most of these tests need to be done by specialists...or at least read by specialists.

OFA is the organization that "reads" the xrays of the hips/elbows...or your own personal Orthopedist. A Cardiologist would be the one to "clear" the heart (you take her yourself). An Opthamologist would clear the eyes. (All of these would be Vet Specialists).

Please don't even consider breeding her until ALL of these tests are done. And then...research the pedigree in the meantime to determine whether or not having puppies by her would benefit the breed. And then question WHY you want to breed.

Show dogs are kept "intact" because they're the dogs that most closely meet the Newfoundland Breed Standard...and would be potential "breeding stock" to improve/benefit the breed. Not all Newfs are created equal in the "standard" department. So...if you have a winning show dog, you know you have a dog who, if they also have all their health clearances, may be "worthy" of breeding.

Notice I say *may be*? There are MANY other considerations to factor in. Like temperament. The standard expressly says "sweetness of temperament". Not all Newfs are "sweeet". Genetic history (health/longevity). Working ability (can the dog do the job it was intended to do? Newfs are meant to rescue people in the water...and pull weighted carts). All of these things need to be considered, and the same goes for the male she'd be breeding to.

There are a lot of topics here on this. You may want to go and look for "stickeys" at the top of each forum and read a bit.

Also, there is a lot of information on the Newfoundland Club of America's site (including rescue contacts), and the OFA site (what's required for each breed per the pertinent Breed Club...in this case, the NCA).

You can look up the parents registered names on OFA and see if THEY have all their clearances. And then research the lines backwards. They need to have as many clearances as possible too...because hereditary defects skip generations..and go sideways (so look at the siblings too)...etc.

To start a breeding program, it's best to get involved with your local Newf Club (they're regional and there are a LOT of quality Newf breeders/people in your area)....go to events....meet people...and start researching. Finding a mentor to help you is very important, because then you'll learn how to "do it right"!

OFA

www.offa.org

NCA

http://www.ncanewfs.org/index.shtml

 

[R Taft]

I totally agree with all of the info Donna has passed on to you............

My own personal view is leave breeding to the experts or at least with the support and knowledge of your breeders. There are already so many newf's that require rescue in the USA/Canada, why add to the numbers.......Ronnie

 

[seasett]

great advice donna.
From the questions in your post i would say that you probably aren't prepared to breed. There is a TON of information out there and I think it would be best to learn from willow as a great pet, then consider buying a breeding quality dog later. If you aren't sure of what to do with her, then you more than likely wont be a mentor for people that you are going to be selling puppies to. Find a mentor to help you out. If you don't have a good newfie breeder nearby, thats okay, Find a reputable breeder of any breed and learn as much as you can. how/why to prove a dog, dog behavior, breeding ethics, and how basic genetic factors work is a great start.

Also, consider that when you breed dogs you don't just breed an individual to an individual. You breed their genetics.
study Willows pedigree:
~Has conformation been proven (whats the point of a purebred dog if care isn't made to make sure the dogs conform to a standard: newfs need to look like newfs, not saint bernards, not goldens, not yorkies)... i personally like to see working ability proven too, but i am not as picky about titles there.
~has health been proven (if at 2yrs her hips OFA , but she has terrible joint problems in her pedigree she probaly lucked out, but her pups may not)
~is there a history of a stable temperment(she may be sweet as pie, but her pedigree may have some iffy dogs)

If, when she is old enough, you are able to prove she is of breeding quality, then study the pedigree of studs that compliment her. The best dog in the world can produce absolute garbage when bred to the wrong dog (hell, even when a 'perfect match' is breed you can still get garbage!)

Everyone loves puppies. Everyone thinks that their dog is amazing. I can't tell you how many times i have heard "oh fluffy is so pretty, and so nice, she is the best dog i have ever had. she needs to have puppies!" and i cringe. The thing is, if you truely have a passion for the breed, you will do everything you can to enure that the next generation is the best it can be. Be SURE that the breeding dog can help the breed as a whole by reproducing, and be sure you have the knowledge to educate the next generation of newfie owners.

the biggest thing i say to people when they tell me they want to breed thier pet is "Purebred does NOT mean well bred"


You mentioned that you may want to get a male. Consider talking to some breeders about getting a show pup. I know a lot of people that have been able to get a breeding quality dog after proving they will show and health test a dog. Plus, showing will introduce you to many different people, different lines, etc. there is a LOT to be learned by standing ringside and watching!

Another thing is rescue. Have you considered fostering for a rescue instead of breeding? (Rescue can teach you about the rights, and definatly the wrongs of breeding too) there are SOO many wonderful rescue guys out there that need help, and adopting or fostering is a great thing to do. I am always for saving a life over producing one.

There are a lot of people near you that can help. Contact some breeders, your regional club members, and get involved with the breed!

 

[Jeannie]

My first thought is how do you know the boy you choose will compliment your female? If your bitch has a light coat you will want to breed to a boy with a heavy coat. If your bitch has less than excellent hips you will want to breed to a boy with better hips. What if your bitch needs a better head or longer neck.? Any male will need to compliment your female. That is why buying a male and a female just does not work most of the time. Why limit yourself to one male? With AI you can choose any male in the country.

You said yourself that Willow isn't a show dog. If she cannot compete in the show ring and win then she does not conform to the breed standard. Breeding her is going to do nothing to better the breed.

My Adam has OFA excellent hips, OFA cleared elbows, heart cleared by cardiologist, thyroid cleared by Michigan, normal patellas, and clear for cystineria. In the show ring he did well, even went BOB his 2nd time out at 6 1/2 months old. His bite went off at about 10 months of age. So he was neutered. I cannot better the breed if I were to breed him so why do it?

There are a lot of poorly bred newfs. If we want to keep our breed healthy we need to be selective with each breeding.

IMO you need to get involved with your local newf club and build a mentoring relationship with your breeder, learn about newfs and in the meantime, help with rescue.

 

[Ginny]

Ditto to all that has been said. Great advice.

As was said, AKC papers don't mean that a dog/bitch is of good quality. I've owned Newfs for 20 years - all from reputable show breeders and only now have a bitch that is worthy of breeding.

It costs a fortune to do things correctly. Showing, health clearances, vet costs, stud fees, whelping fees...the list goes on and on. This is definitely not a money making venture and even with everything done correctly, it can end in heartache.

A mentor is key. Mine can recant the virtues and negatives of specific dogs/lines from the last 20 years. Even with all the knowledge and experience behind a breeding, it is still a crap shoot. Given that, how could someone just put any two papered dogs together? Anyone who truly cares about the Newfoundland breed wouldn't.

 

[Newfobsessed]

All the advice given is great and worth reading, and reading again. I just wanted to chime in about a situation we have in rescue now. A young "breeder" (though not one at all if you respect your dog and the breed) has a young female whome she bred and sold the puppies. She got pregnant again "accidentally". Now this female is not even 18 months old if I was told correctly. She gave birth the second time to ten puppies. She sat on three and killed them. She did not have milk for them, and no one in the house knew how to feed them. when rescue was finally called four more had died, and they were letting the children hold the remaining two. Almost forgot to mention it was very cold in the house and nothing to keep the litter warm. One is at a vet's in intensive care, which rescue will pay for, and the other is being tube fed by a wonderful Great Dane breeder who knows how to tube feed. These magnificent dogs need constant care when the puppies arrive. They are not like some other breeds who can pretty much be just monitored to see if all is well. The work involved in rearing Newfoudland puppies just puts me more in awe of those breeders who do take the time to carefully select the parents, wait until the time is right, monitor everything and spend their days and nights with the mother. The breeders watchful eye over the puppies really never ends....just lessens depending on who they carefully pick for their puppies forever homes...that is once they are done socializing, beginning training, etc. Please just get more involved, save a life by helping rescue and learn. I am and I can't thank the dogs and the people I meet enough. You'll be very glad you did, as will your future dogs. I apologize about the length of this.

 

[NessaM]

I think the best advice you can be given if you think this is something you are really interested in, is to find a mentor right now. Go and contact your local Newf club, and request a breeding mentor. You need to see everything that goes into a potential breeding from start to finish - the showing of both parents to prove they are representative of the breed, the health checks that have taken place and how much that has cost the breeder, the selection of the parents to pass on desirable traits and why the breeder makes the selections she or he does, the actual breeding, post-breeding care of the bitch, nutritional choices, testing to see if the breeding took hold, the whelping...offer to assist the next time your mentor has a litter on the ground so you can see that it is a 24/7 job once those puppies arrive until they leave for their new homes at 10 to 12 weeks of age. Be there for the cardiac checks so you can see how much it costs. Be aware that like Honeybunch said, often the dams are more of a danger to the puppies than anything else, and that ALL feeding times and any time the dam is to spend time with her puppies for socialization and bite inhibition teaching must be carefully monitored by you.

Even if everything goes perfectly, GOOD breeders do not make money off of a litter. The health checks and the various costs inherent in the business, like the money it costs to show and get a dog's championship, precludes any profit. People do this because they love the breed and they wish to improve it. It's a labor of devotion and affection, and a truly good Newfoundland breeder is a special person indeed - willing to forego sleep for months every time they have a litter on the ground, willing to spend a small fortune to provide their breeding animals with optimum health and nutrition, willing to schlep all over the country to prove that their animals are excellent representations of the breed by winning their championships, willing to research genetics and nutritional science...the list just goes on. I know I could never do it. Quite apart from every other consideration, the first time I had a still-born puppy or heaven forbid some small lapse in care by me led to a puppy being crushed or killed in some other manner, I'd lose my marbles! But, for those that believe they CAN do it, the best way to learn is hands-on. I'd find an NCA-recognized breeder near you willing to let you shadow him or her, and that's what I'd do.

 

[Jeannie]

I think you need to take the time to review this thread. It tells the saga of a breeder who almost lost the bitch, had to bottle feed the puppies because mom's milk dried up, infections and so on.

If I remember right I believe this breeder once said this litter of 2 cost her thousands of dollars.

http://www.newf.net/Forums/showthread.php?t=54164

 

[victoria1140]

we rescued Jessie our gsd in an appaling state, we were her fourth home in eight months and had only had her a week when we found out she was pregnant. She had eight puppies and was so seriously ill with womb problems that we had to hand rear eight puppies and every two hours of getting up , feeding and general cleaning up and pup and mummy maintenance and nursing. It cost us £3000 $4500 to get Jessie well and make sure the pups were all healthy.We ended up working extra jobs just to pay her bills.Got through over 40litres of bleach and disinfectant, 320 washing tablets.200 dishwasher tablets, lost count of puppy food, extra vitamin and supplement costs as we couldn't find goats milk here. The mess was horrendous, even when weaned as mop the floor, clean up the poop, feed them, clean up again and get ready to start all over again in a few hours.

I know you want to wait longer if you decide to breed but just please be aware that if you do things go wrong and your insurance may not cover it, plus there is a lot of emotional stress and heartache when fnding homes and letting them go. Also if the new home doesn't work out are you prepared to take the not so small puppy back.

there are a lot of things to consider when breeding and though I wouldnt change a thing its hard work, smelly, noisy and full of potential problems,
If you aren't sure or havent got the facilities or a healthy bank balance then personally I wouldn't advise it

 

[NewfDad]

My personal opinion is that right now unless there is some huge reason to breed her I wouldn't. I also wouldn't spay her until later though for reasons better expressed above. Right now, today, I feel that given the current economy, given the current volume going through rescue skipping a breeding, not starting to breed at this time is probably one of the best things folks can do for the breed. The rescue that we got Katala and Kilrain from placed 14 in 07, 39 in 08, and are at 37 year to date for 09. Right now I feel like we need to focus on caring for the pups that are out there rather than increase the number. I am not advocating stopping all breeding but limiting or pausing to help provide slots for Newfs would be a good thing these days. As always IMHO.

ART

 

[Berwoods]

All,
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you for all the information you gave me. It has really been beneficial!
I think I have come to some firm conclusions. First off, thank you Donna for that information on spaying too soon. After doing some additional research, I have decided to wait until that age to spay Miss Willow. You were very right on about the hormones so the decision to fix her will have to wait.
Secondly, I have learned that I am NOT ready at this time to breed. You all are right, if I have this many question myself about it, why would I ever make that decision? If I really feel like this is something I want to do, I need to get with a mentor, study up more about my newfs, get Willow clearances when she gets older (she has been inspected by a vet and has hip x-rays but at this age there is still a 10% chance that she could show signs of hip displaysia further down the line), and find a stud that compliments her as far as making up for her weaknesses.
And this is IF... IF I decided breeding was for me. At this point, I am DEFINITELY leaning to the side of fixing her when she reaches appropriate age and learning more about the breed through the joy of pet ownership.
I am VERY interested in rescue. I never knew that there were so many newfs out there who needed help! Is this anyone out there who knows of a quality organization that does this sort of thing? Ive done my internet research by I always prefer personal references if anyone has them! I think ncarescue.org looks really good.
Also, I went ahead and got Willows Pedigree report from AKC. I can't wait to start researching back! So far I see a few champions as well as some landseer and browns in there! So neat!!!
Thanks Again Guys!

 

[Angela]

Here is a link to the Newfoundland Club of America Rescue contacts. If I lived in the States and was looking for a rescue Newf I would consult the clubs rescue contacts.

http://bing.search.sympatico.ca/?q=newfoundland club of america rescue&mkt=en-ca&setLang=en-CA

ps, I think you have made a very wise decision in learning more about Newfs, and breeding before you jump in to it!!!

 

[suse]

I also suggest looking at the Newfoundland Club of America's website. The have a listing of rescues by state and region. I received my rescue through them by way of the New Jersey, Pennsylvania ,Delaware (NewPenDel) rescue. You can be guaranteed that this organization has only the best interest of the newf at heart. You must complete an application and have a home inspection before you get a dog.

It has been one of the most rewarding experiences of my life. I met GOOD people and received a lot of info and help with my rescue. They usually do come with some issues, but it is such a joy when you help them work through issues and get a great companion. I have signed up to foster and I plan on getting another dog through rescue. There are so many out there needing good homes. Many on this site have got rescued newfs and have such heart warming stories to tell.

I am sorry I'm being so wordy...it is a subject I care deeply aboutT Best wishes on your journey!

 

[sbyer]

I speak as an ordinary person, a newf owner, but without all the knowledge of the experienced people who have responded previously,

I'm not really knowledgeable about all this but from the breeders I know, they usually select a dog who is breedable and make this known when you get the dog, that they would like to breed her and they are involved in the breeding decisions. I would take their advice
.
I am the owner of a rescue, antecedents unknown, who is a pure joy in my life and fortunately has the true newf temperament of sweetness and gentility. This is not always the case as we do have some unadoptable newfs in rescue due to bad home situations and/or indiscrimate breeding. I was lucky. After I lost my last dog, a newf mix at 14 1/2 yrs, I pored the internet sites and was astonished at the number of dogs everywhere, in the States & Canada. Looking specifically for a newf or newf mix, the greatest numbers were in the States. I finally found my boy at Newf-friends right here in Ontario but not before many hours of frustrating searching.

I could not afford to get a ‘purebred newf’ so I went the rescue route. Newfs are a special breed, as you know, but not everyone is a good owner for them. For all their wonderful qualities, they do have other qualities which do not endear them to the average person who can be initially be swept away by their ‘cuteness’ and lovable nature. (I confess to being one of them), but I have also lived with them and know what it entails on a day to day basis. We have the hair, grooming, drooling, floogers, size, etc which is not always seriously considered. You have to love all those qualities too. I speak as a basic dog (and newf) lover, not one who has been heavily involved in the breed and its perpetration but I respect those who are, and get guidance from those who have devoted their lives to the Newfoundland dog.

We have a couple at work who decided to breed their Rottweiler’s, partly as a moneymaking venture, although I know this isn’t your motive, and 5 months later they still have 4 puppies out of 9, that they are trying to sell. The price keeps dropping but I know they have lost more money than they started out with. J

ust more thoughts to add to all the excellent advice already offered by a lot of very experienced newf people.

Willow does look like a sweetie and I understand that you would like to see her puppies!
What does your breeder think re breeding her?
__________________

 

[Jeannie]

There was a man near here who had two newfs, bred them. Had 9 puppies, one died, sold one and was left with 7 puppies. Our animal control found one near death in a field one winter day. Luckily the dog was saved and turned over to rescue. I talked to the man over and over about surrendering the pups to rescue. He refused thinking he could eventually sell them.

 

[Jeannie]

Need to add, the one pup he sold was to a customer of mine. This newf has the newf personality but has lots of hip/rear leg problems.

 

[Berwoods]

Gosh, the stories out there can be heartbreaking! We have begun the researching process to look at rescuing a male Newf. Its probably going to take a while to find one but I would love to do what I can to help any Newf that needs a home!

 

[Tug]

Rescues rock!
They may come with baggage, but it's full of love as well as problems.
After Tug I plan on taking in senior Newf's who need a home.
Thank you for looking at rescues.

 

[victoria1140]

rescues are great dogs, they can be difficult and always come with baggage but when you start overcoming any problems they had it is the most wonderful feeling in the world. they seem to understand they're getting another chance and are wonderful if at first hard work.