How To Evaluate Breeder's Websites (NCA Page)

[Social]

First off, I agree. Second, I have another angle on this. If the breeder isn't a member of a breed club, then how does one know whether or not the breeder knows anything about the breed? Clubs are GREAT resources to educate onesself about one's breed of interest.

Well if the breeder is not a member of a breed club, but took the time to research or to know about the rescues in their area, this makes them better informed then those that wrote a check but have no idea where it ended up. No one can tell me this doesn't happen, because I know that it does.
There are 1000s of people that join breed clubs, they have no idea what that breed clubs mission is, where their dues go, etc. Then there are breeders that boast clinics, study literature, attend shows but are not members of their breed club. You people and your red flags. Ive seen them time and time swim here on NN over all sorts of non issues. I prefer breeders that know what they are doing this is my opinion.

 

[Social]

Another benefit of looking for a breeder that's a member of the NCA and/or regional clubs is that they are required to adhere to the Club's code of ethics. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but breeders that are not following the code of ethics can have their membership revoked or denied. This helps a puppy buyer weed out some BYB that are not following the strict ethics of the Club. To me, this is important.

Have you read the NCA Breeder code of ethics? It's a wet noodle..

 

[ardeagold]

Well if the breeder is not a member of a breed club, but took the time to research or to know about the rescues in their area, this makes them better informed then those that wrote a check but have no idea where it ended up. No one can tell me this doesn't happen, because I know that it does.
There are 1000s of people that join breed clubs, they have no idea what that breed clubs mission is, where their dues go, etc.

What you say is true, for some breed clubs, at some levels. Some clubs, like the GRCA (Golden Retriever Club of America) have different membership levels, and a member's involvement in club activities, or lack thereof, allows them to to have a say in club policy/decisions and vote, or not. I can join the GRCA by sending in a check and an application I print off the net. But I won't be a full voting member. I have to be involved for a period of time to do that. And then I'd have to be approved for full membership.

The NCA does not work that way. To become a member is a process and you won't become one just by "applying and paying dues". There are no tiered levels of membership, so the procedure is more complex. Have you looked into it?

Then there are breeders that boast clinics, study literature, attend shows but are not members of their breed club. You people and your red flags. Ive seen them time and time swim here on NN over all sorts of non issues. I prefer breeders that know what they are doing this is my opinion.

Yep there are breeders who do all that, and are NOT members of the NCA (speaking of US breeders specifically). But the question is...if they do all that...WHY aren't they?

That would be a red flag for me. And this is MY opinion. I know some breeders like the ones you refer to. And, their response to my question about why they're not members is usually, IMO, a load of bull hockey. Rarely will they tell you they can't find anyone who's a member who will sponsor them....or why. You'll get some song and dance that usually includes their dislike for (fill in the blank).

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Belonging to a breed club often also shows the desire to have mentorship and to benefit from the experiences of other breeders..and that can be invaluable, especially for novice breeders. Also, breed clubs are also ultimately responsible for dealings with the AKC at a national level, and that can have impact on the future of the breed.

 

[Sun Valley]

Social.....you sound very angry.......have You had some bad experiences?

LA

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

I prefer breeders that know what they are doing this is my opinion.

Mine too! So do you think breeders that belong to a breed club don't?

 

[Angela]

. You people and your red flags. Ive seen them time and time swim here on NN over all sorts of non issues. .

Would you care to elaborate on that Social?

 

[Social]

@ LA - no? I don't think i "sound" angry. I am a member of more then one breed club. And I have learned nothing from them. This doesn't make me angry, or give me red flags. (I'm not a breeder).
I have spoken to breeders on both sides of the fence. None were more or less knowledgeable or concerned with the breed they represented.
I believe that the ley person gets the wrong idea when they are told that reputable breeders are members of a dog club, this is just simply not true. There are some very unrepeatable breed club members, just the same as non breed club members. Joining a breed club does not make the breeder any less human and also does not offer the buyer any type of protection, should something go wrong. But is a common misconception that the breed club will offer the buyer some type of assistance should something go wrong.
You send up enough "red flags" and you will eventually red flag yourself out of existence.

 

[BreezyNewf]

Well, if no one minds, I'm gonna say a few words.... the breeder I went through is not a member of the "club" or any club for that matter. She is very careful with her breeding and takes very, very good care of her babies. She is always a phone call away, always wants to know how our Breezy is doing, and she is a great friend now. I am thankful I found her. She has her puppy parents tested for heart and joint problems and has them on all natural diets.
So, my thing is, just because someone isnt in a club doest make them a bad breeder or someone you should be wary of. Yes, do your research! but dont exclude just because of that one thing.
sorry, if I made anyone mad. I just wanted to say a few words.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

@ LA - no? I don't think i "sound" angry. I am a member of more then one breed club. And I have learned nothing from them. This doesn't make me angry, or give me red flags. (I'm not a breeder).
I have spoken to breeders on both sides of the fence. None were more or less knowledgeable or concerned with the breed they represented.
I believe that the ley person gets the wrong idea when they are told that reputable breeders are members of a dog club, this is just simply not true. There are some very unrepeatable breed club members, just the same as non breed club members. Joining a breed club does not make the breeder any less human and also does not offer the buyer any type of protection, should something go wrong. But is a common misconception that the breed club will offer the buyer some type of assistance should something go wrong.
You send up enough "red flags" and you will eventually red flag yourself out of existence.

I completely agree with the concept that if you send up enough red flags you will eventually red flag yourself out of existence!! And some people are really good at spotting them..and others not so much.:coffeedrink:

I don't agree that there is any misconception about clubs offering assistance to buyers..in fact most clubs are very clear about NOT doing that. Other than requiring breeders to abide by a code of ethics, they really are not in a position to do much more than remove someone who does not. But if a breeder is at least IN a breed club..it does show they have some incentive to be involved in the breed beyond raising puppies for profit.

It's regretable that you have learned "nothing" from association with breed clubs..as when I was a novice..my experience was the total opposite. I was eager to learn, asked a million questions, and was able to find a mentor that has stuck with me for almost 30 years. And at this point, while I still consider her to be my mentor...and the first phone number I dial..we are more friends than teacher/student now. But I've never ever forgotten that no matter how much I learn..she still has YEARS of experience on me. I value that. If I hadn't joined a breed club, I might never had enjoyed the close association I have with both her and a couple of other people who were travelling the same path that I was. We exchange information and new things we learn on a regular basis. And perhaps that's one of the most valuable things about breed clubs..the opportunity to be united with people who have a similar passion. I would never underestimate the value of a breed club, but you have to go into it with the attitude that you want to learn if you are going to glean anything from it. It's a great place to exchange information!!

 

[ArtfulCharm]

I don't agree that there is any misconception about clubs offering assistance to buyers..in fact most clubs are very clear about NOT doing that. Other than requiring breeders to abide by a code of ethics, they really are not in a position to do much more than remove someone who does not. But if a breeder is at least IN a breed club..it does show they have some incentive to be involved in the breed beyond raising puppies for profit.

It's regretable that you have learned "nothing" from association with breed clubs..as when I was a novice..my experience was the total opposite. I was eager to learn, asked a million questions, and was able to find a mentor that has stuck with me for almost 30 years. And at this point, while I still consider her to be my mentor...and the first phone number I dial..we are more friends than teacher/student now. But I've never ever forgotten that no matter how much I learn..she still has YEARS of experience on me. I value that. If I hadn't joined a breed club, I might never had enjoyed the close association I have with both her and a couple of other people who were travelling the same path that I was. We exchange information and new things we learn on a regular basis. And perhaps that's one of the most valuable things about breed clubs..the opportunity to be united with people who have a similar passion. I would never underestimate the value of a breed club, but you have to go into it with the attitude that you want to learn if you are going to glean anything from it. It's a great place to exchange information!!

Two thumbs up for this! (I thought there was a thumbs up icon but I can't find it?)

 

[ardeagold]

I completely agree with the concept that if you send up enough red flags you will eventually red flag yourself out of existence!! And some people are really good at spotting them..and others not so much.:coffeedrink:

I don't agree that there is any misconception about clubs offering assistance to buyers..in fact most clubs are very clear about NOT doing that. Other than requiring breeders to abide by a code of ethics, they really are not in a position to do much more than remove someone who does not. But if a breeder is at least IN a breed club..it does show they have some incentive to be involved in the breed beyond raising puppies for profit.

It's regretable that you have learned "nothing" from association with breed clubs..as when I was a novice..my experience was the total opposite. I was eager to learn, asked a million questions, and was able to find a mentor that has stuck with me for almost 30 years. And at this point, while I still consider her to be my mentor...and the first phone number I dial..we are more friends than teacher/student now. But I've never ever forgotten that no matter how much I learn..she still has YEARS of experience on me. I value that. If I hadn't joined a breed club, I might never had enjoyed the close association I have with both her and a couple of other people who were travelling the same path that I was. We exchange information and new things we learn on a regular basis. And perhaps that's one of the most valuable things about breed clubs..the opportunity to be united with people who have a similar passion. I would never underestimate the value of a breed club, but you have to go into it with the attitude that you want to learn if you are going to glean anything from it. It's a great place to exchange information!!

Yeah...where's that darned "Like" button when you need it??

One other thing...that Breezy mentioned earlier...not all breeders who don't belong to clubs are uncaring breeders, but if they don't encourage the offspring of their dogs to participate in breed specific competitions (working and/or the show ring), they're missing a huge component of their breeding program.

Without competition how does one know that what they're breeding meets the criteria for what a Newf "should be"? The breed standard says what a Newf is, and what it should be able to do, and that's what breeders strive to produce. Many place their pups in competitive homes because they need know that the dogs are able to do what they were intended for.

These competitions are frequently put on by breed clubs, and not the AKC. People who don't belong to the clubs, don't usually know about the events....

Just a thought.

 

[Social]

Another benefit of looking for a breeder that's a member of the NCA and/or regional clubs is that they are required to adhere to the Club's code of ethics. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but breeders that are not following the code of ethics can have their membership revoked or denied. This helps a puppy buyer weed out some BYB that are not following the strict ethics of the Club. To me, this is important.

Let people assume that the breed club does more to help them then they actually do. Someone may get their membership revoked or they may not. Clubs may help you by answering questions or they may not.
There is a breeder I know, who is the father of an ok'd friend of mine, he breeds labs. He's been doing it since then beginning of time, he breeds mostly for profit, but he does use his dogs when he hunts. The dogs are well cared for but they are not pets. He does not show or participate in any events. He tests his dogs, and they are perfect for hunting. I've known a few people over the years that have bought dogs from him, one being my brother in law. Once a year a local hunting club visits his farm for information and advice on hunting labs, he is thought to be the expert in this area. He has no interest in joining a breed club, showing his dogs, doing anything more then breeding and hunting with them. And if you want a dog born to hunt, he's your guy. He's had several articals written about him in the local hunting dog association publication. It is very possible to be top of your game and not be a member of any club.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

I don't think anyone can really accuse the NCA of not being helpful with answering questions..this thread began by pointing out a plethora of information that is available from the NCA without even ASKING anyone. Any of the breed clubs that I have belonged to over the years have been very diligent about having information available to people who wanted to find out more about the breed..either via website, or a contact person that was knowledgeable and friendly. At times..we took turns being the contact person, so that there was always someone available to talk to newcomers. I can't speak for other breeds as I have no experience with their clubs, but the Newf Clubs I have dealt with have been really good on that front.

 

[ardeagold]

Let people assume that the breed club does more to help them then they actually do. Someone may get their membership revoked or they may not. Clubs may help you by answering questions or they may not.
There is a breeder I know, who is the father of an ok'd friend of mine, he breeds labs. He's been doing it since then beginning of time, he breeds mostly for profit, but he does use his dogs when he hunts. The dogs are well cared for but they are not pets. He does not show or participate in any events. He tests his dogs, and they are perfect for hunting. I've known a few people over the years that have bought dogs from him, one being my brother in law. Once a year a local hunting club visits his farm for information and advice on hunting labs, he is thought to be the expert in this area. He has no interest in joining a breed club, showing his dogs, doing anything more then breeding and hunting with them. And if you want a dog born to hunt, he's your guy. He's had several articals written about him in the local hunting dog association publication. It is very possible to be top of your game and not be a member of any club.

Interesting, because ALL serious retriever/hunting dog breeders I know are VERY active in their national breed clubs...specifically to have a say in the AKC field trials (competitions for retrievers) rules and regulations AND they also belong to their "local" Hunt Clubs, so they can stay involved, as well as compete and get Hunt Titles on their dogs. They also "hunt" their dogs for recreation.

If this man has had articles written about him in the local hunting dog assn publication.....then I can't imagine that he's not heavily involved in Hunt Clubs, at the barest minimum.

What's his name? If I haven't heard of him (the hunting retriever world is small)....I'm positive I know many who have.

PS...I have hunting retrievers.

 

[Social]

Hes not involved. He's a disabled alchaholic, he doesn't do anything that doesn't involve drinking. He fell down an elevator shaft during a job (elevator inspector for the state) some 30 years ago.
I visit him from time to time while my friend is in town, and he would rather be shot in the big toe then to join any club, for competition or any other reason. He's on old fella, and lives very much a hermit life. His name is Kris and I don't feel comfortable posting his last name because of the personal details I posted here. Obviously I don't think he would be too happy about it.

 

[ardeagold]

Hes not involved. He's a disabled alchaholic, he doesn't do anything that doesn't involve drinking. He fell down an elevator shaft during a job (elevator inspector for the state) some 30 years ago.
I visit him from time to time while my friend is in town, and he would rather be shot in the big toe then to join any club, for competition or any other reason. He's on old fella, and lives very much a hermit life. His name is Kris and I don't feel comfortable posting his last name because of the personal details I posted here. Obviously I don't think he would be too happy about it.

I didn't ask for his personal history...just his name.

Pretty amazing guy to not be involved, and yet is able to do all that you said in the quote below. Don't they say his name in the articles? Do the people in the hunt club who visit him know his name when they ask for information and advice?

Once a year a local hunting club visits his farm for information and advice on hunting labs, he is thought to be the expert in this area. He has no interest in joining a breed club, showing his dogs, doing anything more then breeding and hunting with them. And if you want a dog born to hunt, he's your guy. He's had several articals written about him in the local hunting dog association publication. It is very possible to be top of your game and not be a member of any club.

If *I* wanted a dog to be bred to be an excellent hunter...I'd look at someone like this (note the titles and clearances...and the pedigree at the bottom of the page):

http://duckflatretrievers.com/Labs2011/

All of the serious hunters I know...and the serious breeders of hunting dogs I know want the BEST. They go to top breeders because they KNOW the dogs are bred to do what they're supposed to do. They spend a fortune on "started" dogs (initial training completed), and another fortune on training them.

The breeders do all clearances, and everything we've stated that good Newf breeders do. Join clubs, get involved, screen buyers carefully, compete, know every dog in every pedigree that's "worth their salt", etc. You can't KNOW how a dog will perform until it gets out there and performs. Breeding isn't enough. It's a large part of it's genetic code, but not all dogs genes are expressed the same. You need to choose your matings carefully to have a chance at a successful outcome and how do you learn that without a lot of help from other breeders who have already achieved what you hope to? Where do you get that knowledge? A club is a great networking resource...for many things, including finding "new blood" to introduce into your program. Without "hands on" experience with a LOT of dogs you have nothing to go on, except for lots of paper (reading material). And you know the old saying..."it looked good on paper"? Well often things do look good on paper but the results are disastrous. That's why it's good to have a group of exerienced people you can talk to...so they can talk you out of making big mistakes. Until you've seen it all (or most of it), you don't even know what to look for. They do.

 

[Social]

Ok and that's fine, but the people around here want dogs that hunt to come from, dogs that hunt. All of these hunters are not interested in breed clubs. The only validation they need is their dog can and will hunt. You think it is important, so for your dogs it would be important, but for the farmers, military persons, fishermen around here, breed club is so of the spectrum, I'm not even sure any of them would know what it was. But they sure know a good hunting dog, and they go to Kris, everytime, for a lifetime. When their children grow up get married and buy a dog, they buy from Kris. They are not interested in showing, or any of that fancy big city stuff (spits into a cup *ting*). And that's the real world. Dog fanciers only make up a small percentage of the overall population.
You know before there was dog clubs there were breeders, and that seems to have worked out just fine
No you didn't ask me for his history, I just felt it was important.

I like Kris, his dogs are wonderful, and I don't like labs. Hes rude, crude, a real mans man. He is well respected in his field, and if I was to buy a lab, it would be from him. And I know I would be getting a dog born and bred to function as it was ment to so many years ago.

 

[ardeagold]

Sounds like you live down the street from me.

However, I'm just responding to what YOU said. About magazine articles about him, hunt clubs going to his farm for advice and training. All I wanted was to know who this man is? If he's held in such high esteem...and he's that good....and clubs know who he is, why can't we?

Even waaaay back when....breeders formed clubs. Hunt clubs have existed since the beginning of hunting breeds. And that's how the knowledge got passed down...from one breeder to the next. Records were kept, breedings/health/performance was noted. It wasn't done in a vacuum. Training isn't either. And where did Kris get HIS knowledge? Guesswork?

PS...not all dogs that hunt produce good hunting dogs. Ask Kris.

 

[Social]

Hmmm-I posted a message and it vanished, I will try again, forgive me if I post the same thing twice.
I'm not posting his name here out of respect for him, he doesn't own a computer and may think they are a devil box. He's a hermit so I can only assume he would like to remain a hermit on the Internet.
I have never asked him where he started out, maybe it was a family thing?

Dog breed clubs did not start with dog breeding.
The American Indians l