Government's basic Role -longish

[KodysGrandma]

I've been engaged in an off NN discussion with like minded friends about what I see as a divergence in our culture about the role of government. As a "senior" citizen it seems to me that 50-75 years ago must people had the same general understanding about the basic role of government.

I'm don't think that's true any more. So- if you are so inclined try this.

Think and post about what you really believe is the basic nature of people, how this relates to what you see as the primary function of government at all levels.

E. G.- I think people's basic nature is a mixed bag, good and bad (we're talking non-mentally disturbed people here). Religion develops to teach and help people control their less desirable tendencies- murder, theft, child abuse etc. Religion thus provides the underpinnings to a government which then institutionalizes those core cultural commonalities. That is NOT to say that government needs to be hand in glove with a particular religion, only that the common religious core of a country provides a unifying theme around which the government is built.

For me, all I want a government to do is those things which I (as a competent person) cannot do for myself or in conjuction with a voluntary group (Church, lodge, civic organization etc.) Thus national defense first and foremost, things like basic law regarding property and contract rights, coinage of money and perhaps a few others. On a local level, it's law enforcement, and things of that nature. A framework which provide free men (in the broad sense) the ability to create a decent life for themselves.

There are other things that could be mentioned but this should be enough to show where I'm headed and see if anyone else wants to have a reasoned thoughtful discussion about what a government should do. I'm not talking specific programs here, only the basic core principles you think you government should follow.

 

[ina/puusty]

Well..since your core concepts haven't mentioned those of us who have exactly diddly over squat for a religious Faith..but are well centered, and feel like members of the Human Family who do accept a hugely wide and diverse view of the membership in same..a spiritual view..is not an acceptable basis, I take it..from which to 'be'..a functional american. I must have a 'faith'..in order..to be a 'proper' american? (For those who have not trod the path of years..and Years..and YEARS..of discussion about the wide ranging diff. in what it means to be religious..or..spiritual..this will not be in any ..Functional way..understandable..trust moi. It would appear that I am some kind of annomoly..as have not lived a life of crime..ah but then..I am liberal in so many ways..so..perhaps that is seen as a crime..I think..too much..and usually..that leads to new ideas, new answers. First there were hanging animal skins for coverings..then toggles..n pins, and buttons and zippers..then velcro. One drank at puddles ..from a deep bending down..to enjoy the feel of water..flowing in, then a leaf to help the cupped hands hold a bit of water..longer..so as could drink more..and then..a broken shell or gourd..could carry water..for some distance..so as to have a safe margine..of water. I hold my coffee cup..and am always enchanted at the march of ..new thought..that created the emerging concepts. Now..what has this to do with gov. and what underpins a functional one? If one digs into a treasure chest of gem stones..and only sees the diamonds as acceptable..the rubys, agates, obsidion and sea pearls..get left behind. I may be..a bit of polished by age..river rock..but..I have..my values..to a great many..and..over time. So then..if only the people of faith..are of value to a properly run america..what about all the rest of us? ina n HB n Kesa

 

[Sherry1999]

Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.
Steven Weinberg

 

[Windancer]

...Ina.....don't you think she may have been talking about the majority? And.....I assume you have some faith in 'the part of yourself' joined to a larger power.....I have no idea what your concept is, and really it is immaterial..We all have our own...
I know you put great weight in your concept of life/the world....just as a lot of other people do....but please don't think that you are the only one who 'thinks' (which is what I keep hearing) There are a host of others on this planet, who have thought life thru to their satisfaction, and have as much faith in their conclusions as you do...in yours.
All that being said.....How about a reasonable, thoughtful discussion about what government should do for a country...Would be a good discussion. Forget the religeon focus.....for a moment.

 

[ina/puusty]

It is pivatol..the business of religion..as the original thread mentions. No I do not have a feeling of attachment with a higher thinking/planning power. I was raised to decode them as manmade in various cultures..and therefore myth.The closest you would be able to understand what I value..is that I think electrical energy is generated from an uncountable number of sources..throughout the universe..and that we..all living life..are an assortment of mixed drinks of chemicals and permutations of the original 'galactic stuff'..nothing more..and..nothing less. Therefore I value..the business of thinking ones way..into..the future..rather than parroting things from this or that religious faith..those that go back before any concept of christian..and as modern as the religions 'founded' within the last 150 years. Science ..leads me..and a faith in the basic goodness of humankind. I am not good..because I believe I will earn rewards in an afterlife..nor am I good out of fear of a punishment in an afterlife. My life..is now..and I value it..and humankind..so..I try to be helpful..best I can. ina n HB n Kesa

 

[Largo]

If one digs into a treasure chest of gem stones..and only sees the diamonds as acceptable..the rubys, agates, obsidion and sea pearls..get left behind. I may be..a bit of polished by age..river rock..but..I have..my values..to a great many..and..over time. So then..if only the people of faith (or whatever, my addition)..are of value to a properly run america..what about all the rest of us? ina n HB n Kesa

Our, A, government needs to get this right first. Then legislate based on it. A whole lot easier said than done. But since you were speaking of religion or faith, and I do understand what you were meaning, it reminds me of a Scripture ( I believe it is a Scripture), that says man cannot govern themselves. Look around the world and that seems self evident.

The different religions pracitced in this country don't all share basic tenets nor agree on right and wrong. The Christian faith is probably the most popular in this country though has never been the only religion practiced in this country. Christians can't even get their religion right. Although there are some tenents of the Ten Commandments in our laws, our country doesn't go much beyond that as evidence of having Christian religious underpinnings. Or any religious underpinnings. Except Satanism. I kid. I think religions were created to control people, murder them with a so called justifiable excuse, and relieve them of their money.


I believe in Yah and Yahoshua. Some say God and Jesus. But I bet my understanding of the Scriptures is different than some on this board. I'd wager most. There is a history of lying about, on, and in the name of the Word of Yah in this world. See where religion, all of them, creates a problem for government?

 

[Windancer]

......"All that being said.....How about a reasonable, thoughtful discussion about what government should do for a country...Would be a good discussion. Forget the religeon focus.....for a moment. "



OK Ina....no problem at all.....now......can we respond to the question of
"What you think your government should do for you " ? religeon aside....

 

[ina/puusty]

I think the government..should do egg-zacitly..wot it's doing. Year in..and year out..doing what the powers in control..think..'will work'..then..watching and evaluating. It works..for me. When one finds too many (personal choice here) toileting in the communal sandbox..then..one umm..cleans up! ina n HB n Kesa

 

[Windancer]

There is that word again.......could you post a definition from 'Webster' for "Liar" and or "Lying"......

 

[Largo]

My fist paragraph above and see the quote, answered the question. The government needs to first get it right and it be non negotiable on it that all human beings matter. Government needs to start there first. And the government should legislate according to that principle. Other wise in my opinion it is a failed government. So that is what I want them to do. Get that right and be unmoving on it.

I mean is there not enough food produced in the world that people have to starve to death? Why is that some countries in the world are told not to produce food so that they can buy food from some other country at prices they cannot afford. Or the travesty being suffered by farmers in India at the hand of seed providers, many from the U.S. I would like this government to out law monstrous practices by food and seed producers in this country. As just one example. And here is another example. The inequality in our school systems nation wide. A problem mainly brought about because school funding is based largely on revenue from property taxes. So if you live in a school district with not much property tax value to draw from, you're **** out of luck kids. I would like for this government to end that inequality. All of the United States of America's children deserve quality education. Not just those children who parents happen to be well off or doing pretty darn good.

Another Example, I think it is a travesty, that our schools do not teach true black history going back before slavery in this country and true world history and not just history from a European point of view. The short, misleading and many times outright false history lessons our students receive do them and our current and future society a grave disservice. All of the children. Let me stop here, because believe me I could most definitely draw out a much longer list. But let me say this. I do not believe that profits are nor should be the priority ever over humanity or nature. I think unfettered free market is one of the main culprits that is bringing this world to its knees. I want this government to out law all practices that put profit over humanity and nature.

 

[ardeagold]

I think it is a travesty, that our schools do not teach true black history going back before slavery in this country and true world history and not just history from a European point of view.

Our schools don't teach any kind of "true" history, unless it's enumerating the names of the President or some such thing. It's always skewed towards the belief system of the author of the book(s) and the Admin in charge of choosing whichever textbooks they'll authorize.

I think unfettered free market is one of the main culprits that is bringing this world to its knees. I want this government to out law all practices that put profit over humanity and nature.

I believe the free market is the only way the entire world should run. Government should not be involved in it, except to add oversight to practices. Not be involved in profit or loss. If you don't believe in a free market, Rona....how can you be a business owner? You're in business because you see a need and have the opportunity to do something you love while offering a service, and you have to make a profit to survive. Otherwise, you might as well just work for the Govt...as an employee, and only photograph what they want, and pay you a set wage for your talents. I don't like that idea...do you? I think it would kill your creativity and desire...and your talent, in time.

I do not like organized religion. Never have. It's organized by "man", and the behaviors of any offshoot of that religion/sect/cult reflect the views of whichever "man" happens to be in charge at the moment. That's often, throughout history, not been a good thing. However, that's not to say that I don't believe in spirituality or am not a Christian.

I do believe that this nation was founded on Christian principals. It's stated over and over by the founding fathers in one way or another. However, they lived in a time where religion was the basis for society's mores. I don't think that's true anymore. In some ways, it's unfortunate...as I do feel that a peer group (which is what churches, in effect, are)....does make a difference in one's behavior and can impact that behavior - albiet either negatively or positively. When it's good...it can be very good for all. When it's bad.....it's the worst.

I do NOT like those who try to legislate morality....either by cloaking it in religious fervor or by cloaking it in liberal "humanity". Each person has their own beliefs...and they need to be their own moral compass. Right and wrong aren't difficult concepts, however, much of one's moral compass is dictated by their own unique view of their place in this world. Common sense has many different viewpoints as well. So, no matter what, things that one sees as perfectly acceptable and desirable, may be seen as a horrific situation to another.

I do NOT want Government running business...nor trying to "level" the playing field. I want it open to all. No special favors for special interests, no special favors for certain groups. Let things play out without Govt interference.

Everything will balance...and shift...to and fro, which is as it should be. People will learn by the choices they make. Not by the choices another makes for them.

 

[KodysGrandma]

As someone who has had to teach those "galloping romps through the centuries" as one on my professors used to put it, teaching is limited due to time, intellect of students, money for supplies, etc. etc. etc. When I am forced to restrict a World History course then I will base it primarily on those times and places which impacted our current civilization. Why- because I believe in order to be a good citizen of a country or larger civilization you need to know what it is based on and how it got there. Things that tangentially touch on it get included where possible. Other things unfortunately cannot be. No one could possibly in a 45 or 50 minute period for the course of a school year teach everything, obviously. There is always a choice to be made and frankly I don't think it would do our students any good to have knowledge of South Pacific island history, or a corner of SE Asia, or N Africa or wherever more than they have about their own country and civilization.

I hope none of us ever have the value of our choice of life's work decided by some government bureaucrat. Those of us who, for example, have made Newfoundland's our life's work might find ourselves in prison- our effort went to dogs not humans. Do any of us REALLY want that?

 

[Largo]

Hey Donna, I'm busy right now so I'm only going to comment on a couple of things. First, I said unfettered free market. And I said choosing profit over humanity. As an example what Insurance companies have done with health care for Americans.

 

[ardeagold]

Well...given that...we probably agree on something. LOL I agree that there needs to be oversight, but where my problem lies is with Government control (takeovers, interference) in business.

Heck...they don't even do "oversight" well. If they did, we wouldn't have had the Fanny/Freddie/housing/banking debacle.

Some would argue that without choosing profit...they couldn't contribute to humanity. Nor could they "grow" and hire more employees. Etc.

I feel that profit is a good word. Nothing evil there. It's the reason so many in other countries want to come here. So they, too, have a chance to enjoy "profit".

Without companies making profits (large or small), nobody would be better off...especially the poor.

However, I do agree that Health Care needs reform. I do not believe it needs to be Government run. In fact, I think that would be an unbelievable mess. And I believe the quality of care would become lacking.

 

[Windancer]

I think there are college courses in ' Black History'....maybe in some highschools now.

 

[KodysGrandma]

Here, here Donna, agree with you. Also, as someone who worked in a professional supervisory postition for the federal government believe me you do NOT want a government bureaucrat deciding anything for you. I worked with peope, 90% of whom were bright, articulate, educated and really wanted to do a good job. Accomplishing anything worthwhile in the government is luck. The damn thing is so big, so bloated that there is about a 0.00001 chance of getting anyting accomplished. Over 25 years we lost far more than we gained.

It always has amazed me that people will be concerned about what a company official might do that may hurt others, but they seem to think all bureaucrats are always right-minded, careful, have the worlds best wishes at heart and will always do the right thing. Nope, have to disabue you of that notion. They are no better maybe worse than the greedy corporate executive- and it's damn hard to fire them for whatever they do.

 

[Windancer]

"is there not enough food produced in the world that people have to starve to death? "...
Exactly....but problem is...those countries with the starving people refuse to distribute food given to them to the people...It is kept for the elite and their armys. How do you legislate that? think.. N Korea, and certain African Countries.

. "And here is another example. The inequality in our school systems nation wide. A problem mainly brought about because school funding is based largely on revenue from property taxes. ".....
This is true, and I hated this as a school teacher and a parent....but it is based on Taxes that are local and state.. The federal gov adds money based on the ADA (average daily attendence) Thus the drive to keep kids from missing school.

 

[KodysGrandma]

Well I can only look at things from my education and experience. I have taught jr and high school in 7 districts and 5 different states. In every instance except one, there was plenty of money for the children's education, it just wasn't spent in the right places.

Here is FL now parents must send toilet paper and tissues to classrooms along with a long list of other items. All the other things you must send cannot be labeled with your child's name so when some kid steals it, which happens fairly often apparently, you just have to go buy more. I happened to check one of the school lists this past week-end and it said " xxxx headphones- if you bought headphones last year they can be reused this year. The tone made me absolutely furious and I don't have kids in school. How GD generous of them to choose the same type so parents don't have to buy more stuff.

Fire a hundred or so adminstrators that got kicked up there because they couldn't or wouldn't teach and were under tenure and there'd be plenty of money to go to the right places. Teacher's aides- why, nice I agree but essential, I don't think so. How did teaching go on all those hundred years or so before without them. It's a damn bloated bureaucracy again.

 

[Largo]

Donna we do agree there a little bit.

Emmie Lou, In my opinion there is no excuse for teaching our children, all of them, nothing more than that African people were slaves here in America and then got their freedom. Mentioning a few notables and then moving on. Mean while our students learn all about European Americans. And as they go higher up in education still only learn history from a purely European point of view. In college courses teaching other historical points of view are still just elective courses at many colleges and universities. Although any more history period is becoming an elective verses a requirement for the general education part of a college degree. A strictly or mainly European historical point of view does not tell the whole story and some of the history is false or extremely misleading. There are still people and teachers too mind you, that think Europe brought civilization to Africa. And before that, Africans were just primitive people, some think not much more than animals (yep still do). African people and the Indigenous people are every bit apart of America from its founding as European people. How much do you know about America's African peoples history? I'm asking out of curiosity mind you.

 

[Largo]

Some of you may not know, but in May we lost one of our greatest historical scholars. Dr. Ivan Van Sertima. RIP Dr. Van Sertima, you will be greatly and sorely missed.

If you don't know who he is or would like to know more about him. Here is a link to a short bio. http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/vansertima.html

Some of Dr. Van Sertima's lectures can be seen on youtube. And if you have not ever read any of his work. I highly recommend that you do.

Lectures on youtube.

Afrikans in Science -
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=646422939488958030

Civilizations before Greece and Rome -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RC_cyL4VF6o