Best time to switch to adult food

RivNewf

New member
My 2 newfs, Bella, 11 months, and Bungo, 9 months, are currently on Proplan Large Breed Puppy Chicken & Rice and I'm wondering when to make the switch to adult food? In searching previous postings on the subject, most of what I see are from 2 or more years back and, like most discussions on food and diet, the opinions run the gamut from "never feed puppy food" to "feed puppy food for 2 years". My pups came from different breeders and one recommends switching at 6 months, the other at 2 years. I'm a little confused and I would like to know folks current opinions on the subject.

Incidentally, I was feeding Premium Edge Large Breed Puppy with Lamb & Rice until Bungo apperently developed an allergy to it. He had an itchy red rash on his chest and belly and patchy hair loss on his face and chest. 2 vet checks ruled out demodex and scabies so I made the food change and, within 2 sacks, the problem resolved.

Thanks - Gordon
 

KatieB

New member
We were told by both our breeders no puppy food. We fed Canidae All Life Stages to our Berner and switched to raw when he was a year old. We will be feeding our Newfie girl Canidae All Life Stages until she is two and then will decide whether to switch to raw. There are many others on here with more nutritional knowledge so I will let them chime in, but I am in the no puppy food camp for the large-giant breed dogs.
 

NessaM

New member
We're in the no puppy food camp for the giant breed dogs as well, per our puppy's breeder's explicit orders. We've also asked 3 vets and all said absolutely no puppy food - keep protein between 19% and 24%. The higher protein intake can cause your newfy puppy to grow too fast, and lead to joint problems. One of the vets said, and I quote, "we used to push high protein puppy foods for large and giant breeds a decade or two back, and it was such a shame - we really created a lot of problems for those dogs."

**edited because I, evidently, cannot spell.**

[ 12-03-2006, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Nessa & Nanook ]
 

Sound Bay Newfs

Active member
Newf pups should be on adult food from the beginning since they need low protein for slow growth. Newfs are giant breeds and have different needs than large breeds like Labs and Goldens.
 

Brody the Newf

New member
We did puppy food until Brody was 4 months old (breeders suggestion). He seems to have grown slow in comparision to a lot of the Newfs on here.
 

Jeannie

Super Moderator
Never feed puppy food to a newf. You want them to grow slowly so they don't have joint issues and growing pains
 

Peter Maniate

New member
In my experience the real problem with puppy foods for giant breed pups is the extra calcium. Ideal is around one per cent on a dry matter basis and never more than 1.5% on a dry matter basis.

The calcium level shown on a dog food bag is first of all a "guaranteed minimum" and secondly, not ajusted for moisture content.

Most dry feeds for dogs have 10% moisture; this means that you must multiply their figures by 1.1 to adjust the percentage for the moisture content.

To get the average calcium % in the food you have to call the 1-800 number and request the "as fed by" analysis or average nutrient analysis. You may get the average analysis for the food as fed or it may be converted to a dry matter basis or you may get both sets of numbers. If the analysis sheet does not specify "as fed" or "dry matter basis", assume it is "as fed" which means you have to multiply the number by 1.1 assuming a 10% moisture content on an as fed by basis.

For example the feed that I wean pups on is Natural Balance Venison & Brown Rice. The minimum calcium level shown on the bag is 1.1% and the moisture content is a maximum of 10%. However when I got the analysis sheet, the calcium level was shown as 1.34% with no indication that it had been converted to a dry matter basis. Therefore I multiplied 1.34 by 1.1 to get 1.474% calcium on a dry matter basis.

This means that the food just falls below the maximum level of calcium that I will allow. Essentially this means that if the minimum calcium level shown on the bag is more than 1.1%, the calcium level is too high for a giant breed pup.

Worst food that I have ever seen for giant breed pups is the Wellness Fish and Potato. They don't show the calcium level on the bag and I had to press to get the number and was horrified to find out that it was over 2% before being adjusted for moisture content. When I queried why the calcium level was so high, I got a very rude response indicating that they had PhD's who develop the formula but who apparently aren't prepared to take questions.

Newfondly,

Peter
 

selah

New member
We were also told no puppy food by our breeder, it seems to be a pretty common warning. We switched to raw about a week after we got him home and have been very happy with it.
 

Largo

Active member
Peter I see that you are logged on, bumping this up.

[ 01-14-2007, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Largo ]
 

Peter Maniate

New member
It seems that Great Danes are used for most studies of giant breed dogs. Wish someone would use Newfoundlands. Until then, trials and observations by breeders of Newfoundlands are the best that we have.

My conclusions come from observations of Newfs and have been confirmed by practical successful applications on Newfoundland dogs.

I don't make use of studies such as the one you referenced as it is a "Great Dane" study and in any case, much too theoretical for my liking.

As for on-line polling I always remember the words of one of my high school teachers. He kept reminding us "If I hold up a girl rabbit and you all vote that it is a boy rabbit, it is still a girl rabbit."

A very observable fact is how a Newfoundland brood bitch weans her pups - just like her wild canine cousins, by regurgitating her own food. This strongly suggests that nature did not intend for pups/cubs to have a different diet from adults after nursing. People should be very very careful when they try to improve on nature. Skeptics might suggest that feed company marketing departments are trying to gain a competitive advantage...

Newfondly,

Peter
 

sarnewfie

New member
keep in mind the occasional newf male that NEEDS natural calcium to protein rate larger
some males believe it or not need to be on raw turkey necks due to nutricional values
 

Largo

Active member
What I found interesting is that this study along with others shows a limited ability of hormonal regulation of calcium absorption during the early growth stage indicating an importance for a lower amount of calcium for a young growing dog as compared to an adult dog.

Yes studies with other gaint breeds Newfs included would be nice. There is evidence that suggests that there maybe breed specific differences in calcium metabolism and breed specific sensitivities to calcium excess. Going over the various studies, to me there seems to be a recurring theme that the young require a lesser amount during growth than the adults. It seems espcially important during the first six months.

A very observable fact is how a Newfoundland brood bitch weans her pups - just like her wild canine cousins, by regurgitating her own food. This strongly suggests that nature did not intend for pups/cubs to have a different diet from adults after nursing. People should be very very careful when they try to improve on nature.
Yes, I have seen mother dogs do this. It is interesting isn't that in the wild, pups after weaning, eat the same thing as the adults. There is a difference in the amount consumed it seems, but not a difference in what is eaten. Except perhaps during the initial weaning stage, when I think what is regurgitated is muscle meat. (And of course no blood from the kill is consumed by the pups either). And that is interesting because breast milk would still be providing their calcium initially.

I agree people should be very careful attempting to improve upon nature or change what's natural for a species.

I appreciate your reply.

edited to add: I also keep lizards and have learned that Chameleons (and others I imagine) can suffer MBD as well when the mineral content of their diet is deficient or excessive and their rate of growth is to rapid. Interesting.

[ 01-15-2007, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: Largo ]
 

sarnewfie

New member
when the male that grows quickly ends up with pasterns going east west call the breeder pronto, as soon as noticed becouse many have seen huge improvements on the calcium protein ratio in those acceptional males at a certain age and corrected the anomoly with the raw turkey neck regime, not copied or pasted from any website but written from experience
 

Peter Maniate

New member
Hi Largo,

While you are right that the study is interesting and it may help us to eventually understand the growth of giant breed pups, it follows the typical scientific research these days of studying one giant breed, usually a Great Dane, and then applying it to all giant breeds without checking out even one other such breed. At least three such breeds should be checked before such a conclusion is even tentatively made.


Why Great Danes are used to represent the giant breeds is a puzzle to me. They are in the "working group" where most of the giant breeds are found but seem to be the least typical of the giant breeds in that group.

However since the giant breed puppy foods were formulated based on research with Great Danes, this study may be appropriate to suggest that upping the calcium levels, as such feeds have done, is mistaken.

Unlike most other people I have no concern whatsoever with the increased protein levels in puppy foods. For a couple of decades I used adult foods with even higher protein levels for my pups and never had a growth problem. Of course this experience was only with Newfoundlands and I make no claims for other breeds.

Newfondly,

Peter
 

Largo

Active member
I too am puzzled by the fact that Great Danes are used exclusively it seems to represent the giant breeds in the various studies. They are indeed gaint and undergo a faster rate of growth in weight gain and bone length like other giant breeds as compared to smaller breeds, but their bone is not as dense. And I suspect that their growth rate is even faster than your typical giant breed. I would like to know the reasoning for there use. A Dane in our training class was the same age as Bartlett and two puppy Saints, yet considerably taller, and narrower in bone. I too do not find them to be typical of the other gaint breeds.

Other giant breeds that are more representative should definately be used before conclusions are made.

I suspect that Newfs are a bit different even still in some of their requirements than other giant breeds, since their diet was mainly based on fish. I would love to hear your thoughts on their ancestral diet.

I'm not concerned either with the increased protein levels. This has been a good discussion. Thank you.
 

Peter Maniate

New member
Love to talk about the ancestral diet of Newfs.

Started to do research and testing re diets for Newfs in 1982 when I realized that genetics did not yield all the answers; however it was not until 1996 that the lightbulb went on.

Had clues all along but it took awhile to gel in this old man. In the early 80's, one of my Newfs who was a "lodge" dog in Callander, Ontario (just south of North Bay on Lake Nippissing)started to get fish in her diet after an episode with guests who were ice fishing. One of the guests came running back to base screaming that a bear had eaten all of his fish that were strung out on a line. Of course that bear turned out to be the lodge's Newfoundland.

When fish come out of the water in winter, they freeze instantly and this girl ate the fish down to the gill line because they had hooks running through their gills, attached to a line. After that she had to have her fish frozen and the lodge owners kept a freezer full for her so she could have frozen fish all summer long. My clue was that she had the shiniest, healthiest coat that I have ever seen on a Newf. She made the coats of the show dogs of the day look dull.

In 1985 they discovered that cats needed taurine in their diets. Before that, books on cats discouraged feeding fish to felines.

In the 80's I was having great success with feeds that were chicken based but was slow to connect to the fact that chicken skin was a good source of taurine (although not as good as fish).

By the 90's I was looking for even better feeds but couldn't find any, so started supplementing with fish oil (how I missed this clue for so long, I'll never know). Then I read that the first kibble was made in the 1880's and was fish based but the light bulb still did not go on.

Then I started researching Newfs in Newfoundland in the 1600's to the 1800's. Found out that Newfs regularly lived 13 - 15 years and were used instead of horses because hay was not readily available and the Newfs could eat what the family ate. Of course the staple of the diet for humans on the Island of Newfoundland in those days was fish. It was quite common that when cleaning the fish, the head and other parts not considered edible by humans were tossed to the Newfie dogs. Also read that when Newfs were on their own, they were not good at catching prey on land and would go into the sea and catch fish. By now the light bulb was at least flickering. Then I started studying polar bears and how they evolved away from other sub-species of bears like the Newfoundland did from other breeds of domestic canines. The similarities between polar bears and Newfs amazed me and I looked into what these bears ate.

While polar bears love fish and eat them when they can, they subsist primarily on seals which eat fish. It is difficult for a polar bear to catch enough fish to survive; much easier to let the seals catch the fish and then eat the seals.

Turns out that Newfoundland dog ate fish and seals as well, just in reverse proportion - more fish for the Newfs than seals.

So, after 14 years of research I changed my testing completely over from chicken based foods to fish based foods. In the next decade my rate of learning accelerated and I am now convinced that something like an uncleaned whole herring or mackerel is a perfect balanced food for a Newfoundland dog. This is the type of food that our breed evolved to and any attempt to evolve them to a different type of food will result in physiological changes to the breed resulting in a different dog over time. For example, all commercial dog foods use an omega 3 to omega 6 ratio based on human studies partly out of ignorance and partly because omega 3 is more expensive than omega 6. The ratio for humans varies widely from study to study but never does the omega 3 exceed the omega 6; however the ancestral diet for Newfs suggests the opposite for them - much greater proportion of omega 3.

Even when a kibble is fish based, they use fish meal and take advantage of a loop hole in the AAFCO rules. Fish meal can mean either fish that is dehydrated or fish with the oil removed that is dehydrated. The only way that you can tell which was used is that further down in the ingredient list you will see that various vegetable oils (flaxseed, canola, etc) have been added. This wouldn't be necessary if the fish oil was still present.

Currently I am testing a sausage food that just came out in 2006, Rollover Wild Pacific Salmon. Salmon, not salmon meal, is the base ingredient. In the years to come, if my theories prove correct, this food will be the food of choice for Newfoundlands as it combines ancestral food in a relatively pure form with the convenience demanded by our modern society.

I'm use to ridicule. From 1996 to 2000 I had to use canned cat food as there were no dog foods that were fish based. Other breeders and vets made fun of me. Vets would say "If fish is so good for dogs, why hasn't a food company developed such a fish?" Then when several brands came out with fish formulas at the turn of the century, these folks became very silent.


The above is a Readers Digest version but may give you some idea of where I'm coming from and why research on diets for Great Danes in my opinion should be used for Great Danes and not Newfs.

Newfondly,

Peter

[ 01-15-2007, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Peter Maniate ]
 

Ivoryudx

New member
Good discussion, and a very interesting study in that link. I do believe each dogs nutritional requirement is different, but I also believe a individual dogs needs change as it grows. So what may be correct last week, may not be correct this week.

With what seems to be, an increase incidence of OCD in our breed, the following paragraph is very interesting to me:

*********
Radiology
The actual RL and UL at all ages and the increase in length between 9 and 21 wk of age were greater in the GD vs. MP group (Table 5). The development was less uniform in the GD than in the MP group. Regardless of the course of the development of the different secondary ossification centra, both breeds had reached the same stage of development by 21 wk of age. The majority of the GD group had normal-shaped DUM at 9 wk of age, abnormally flattened DUM with increasing incidence of cartilage cones at 15 wk of age, and an irregular structure of the DUM at 21 wk of age. Four dogs of the MP group had flattened or rounded DUM at 9 wk of age that normalized with age; there were no cartilage cones or irregularities of the structure of DUM at all ages.
*********

The "incident of cartilage cones at 15 weeks, then irregular structure at 21 weeks"? This seems to show a direct link in this study with cartilage problems, although they don't say anything about the history/genetics of the dogs studied.

Largo - What ages are you refering to for the 'early growth stage' and the 'young growing dog'?

I don't worry to much about calcium intake in my adult dogs as they are typically already close to their max vertical growing at 18 months of age. So the speed of growth after that age should not be a factor. For conversation purposes, I consider an adult to be roughly 2 years of age. Given this study covers from 7-21 weeks of age, and the above results were found at 15 weeks of age, these pups haven't even teethed yet, and are already showing radiographical proof of a cartilage problem. This leads me to believe that even BEFORE a giant breed pup goes through his largest growth phase, I believe 4-10 months of age, there may be more nutritional requirements than previously thought. (Again, this study does not mention the genetic history) I have read before that there is evidence of puppies or certain young dogs to show signs of not being able to properly absorb their needed nutrients from certain sources.

So would it be beneficial to look into a more balanced nutritional requirement before that 4-10 months of age, in order to help them metabolize better during that time? I would like to know what these pups moms were being fed, and what the genetic history is to help eliminate other questions. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I see this study as showing a 9-10 week feeding program effecting radiographical changes at 15 weeks of age?

Gosh, probably more questions than answers.
 

ardeagold

New member
Mira especially....and sometimes Molly, fish in our pond for "the catch of the day". We have it stocked with striped bass and bluegill. They've been there, with no one fishing, for a LONG time, so some of those fish are huge.

They eat the fish....and share what's left over with their non-fishing Newf and Golden buddies.

It's just wonderful getting fish-breath kisses at the end of the day. BLEH!!

We also give them wild salmon oil (liquid)...and their coats are super shiny.

One thing I found interesting, tho. They don't like fish based commercial kibble. They won't eat it. Perhaps it's because they know what the "real thing" - fresh out of the water - is?

[ 01-15-2007, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Ardeagold ]
 
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