what's the difference?

[scout]

okay, I did a search in the archives, but it wasn't discussed, at least in the General Forum. DON'T YOU ALL GO GETTIN' YER DANDER UP! I'm honestly a little confused here and not trying to stir up any pots (Lord knows I do enough of that in my non-cyberlife) The topic is: What's the difference between backyard breeders and "reputable" breeders?

Many of you know that Atticus came from a "backyard" breeder.

Say a BYB is careful with breeding lines, keeps good breedin and health records going back generations, does health checks, is generally very attentive and loving. They raise the pups in the home, obedience train their dogs, etc. However, they don't show their dogs. Maybe they cut a corner here or there with certifications (largely because of the cost...they are after all a family business, and a side business at that), but have the appropriate tests done and analyzed by a vet. They can prove that they did the tests.

Of course, the potential puppy owner comes along, gets to know the breeder like one is supposed to, finds that they get along famously and both parties trust each other. Always important to trust the breeder and vice versa.

Is that a back yard breeder? I'm really not sure I understand about showing the dogs. And not to step on any toes, but I don't care if I never get any credibility with Atticus. Showing my dog is not my cup of tea. I'm not competitive like that and have no desire to hang out with bunches of dog obsessed people when I could be curled up with my dog reading a good book in front of a blazing fire. I just want him to walk a straight line without pulling me off my feet, and stay off my countertop (yeah right. He stole three frzen solid chicken breasts off my counter last night) How does that lend credibility to a breeder? Isn't the point for most dog owners to have a healthy dog? And even if a dog is "well-bred" isn't it possible for the puppies from that line to have pigeon-toes, hip dysplasia, SAS and other health issues?

I understand the idea that irresponsible breeding makes health issues more of a likelihood.

Also, here in Michigan, I'm seeing all types of breeders on the internet. Some show their dogs and have lots of letters (yes, I'm being a little flip) after their dogs' long names, and some don't show their dogs. How is the average new puppy mama to know? Couldn't all the titles be a smokescreen for an irresponsible breeder too?

I'm sorry to be so disorganized in my thinking. It's been one heck of a day. I guess it all boils down to: Is there such thing as a good backyard breeder?

Thanks all. I understand this can be a sensitive topic. Please don't ream (sp?) me a new one. I just spent my day with 165 teenagers. I've been punished enough.

 

[Jenn]

To me personally a "hobby" breeder is one who is dong it not for the money but the betterment of the breed and does all the necessary tests and is there for the people buying the pups from them for the rest of their lives.

A BYB to me is someone who does the opposite... They may just breed one set of dogs or a handful, but not quite enough to become a puppymiller.

 

[ina/puusty]

Yes..there can be..as in..'my cousins'..but..I imagine they are considered BYB..by many..because they do not have 'blooded' lines..although they have marvelous newfy and newfy-mix dogs. One of them looks a whole like his grandfather..Beethoven of the movie. HB..has come to me..from those cousins. They do NOT..breed to exhaustion, nor do they go out searching for sales. Their puppy-types..go to the extended family..and to those..who have seen/enjoyed..the happy, healthy mixes..that our family has. It was my choice..to have HB spayed..because I did not wish to deal with the all the delicate and 'concerning'..medical issues..nor..to 'be in the puppy business'. This board..and that of AOL previously..moved me..to that choice. My cousins have a local vet..who lives near..and thus is avail. at crucial junctures in the whelping. It was an accident..that happened..when HB's mother was bred..and then died..in giving birth..that hurt us all..to the core. She was to have been spayed..and it just did not happen..in time. In the opinion..of one old woman..I think beautiful..healthy puppys..can be made avail., from those who care for..and love..a family pet. I think that when one is of a personality..that sees, and prizes..showing dogs..training dogs for the ring..and all that that..entails..then one must stick to the blooded, papered lines. Many..are of that mind, and that personality..and pursue the health and welfare of their furkids..with a great passion. I happen to be a mutt, enjoy the company of mutts..and therefore..deal with a vastly diff. perspective. I can say that I enjoy seeing the beauty..of papered lines..but..in my life..I want and cherish..what HB is..and thus..I am at peace..and charmed immensely..by my sweet fur-child..who has no idea..she is a mutt. We are a happy..rowdy pair.

ina n 'Herself'...HB

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

It is not about whether or not you want titles on your dogs or who you wish to associate with. The whole idea of showing a dog before breeding it is to make sure your dog is breed standard and that you would be bettering the breed by breeding it. A BTB may do all the necessary tests and love their dogs just as much, but they are breeding dogs with qualities or characteristics that they like or want. If everyone did that, who knows what the breed would look like, or what temperment they will have in future generations.

[ 10-14-2005, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: NewfYork ]

 

[Newfniece]

I'm not a breeder or a shower and am relatively new to the purebred dog world. For me, I'm not certain that showing a dog is the determining factor in what separates a reputable breeder and a BYB.

A reputable breeder to me is one who cares about the health of the breed (health checks are a non-negotiable for me) and cares about the future of the pups they place. I want to know that they have a spay/neuter contract for pups going to a pet home. I want to know that they are willing to take pups back to rehome if the owner can no longer care for the dog. I want to know that they have a rationale behind who they pair up in a breeding, and not just breeding their male and female over and over again cause it is convenient/cheap. I also want a breeder who is a member of a breed clubs or organization. I want my breeder and I to share views in raising dogs and have a comfortable relationship.

To me, these are the characteristics of a responsible, reputable breeder. If I wanted a show dog, I would be more concerned about the show history of the parents, but for my pet home this isn't a priority. I do believe that breeders who show work really hard at what they do, both in the show ring and in making the best breeding choices, so I don't want to minimize their efforts in any way. I have to give them their props.

And regardless of where Atticus came from...he still has credibility with me!

[ 10-14-2005, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Newfniece ]

 

[Kelleyk]

FYI - In Michigan, unless you have a privacy fence of sufficiect height to prevent viewing by neighbors, back yard breeding is illegal.

Serriously
I think the negative image associated with BYB's is of a haphazard operation that puts no thought into their breeding other than to make money.

I bought Stanley from a very nice family that had 3 Newfies, 2 males and 1 female. All beautiful animals. Stanly came from the 6 year old female's second litter, and they said they were not going to breed her again to their oldest male (who is 9 years old) or to their other male because it was a boy from the first litter. I think they planned on buying a Female eventually to breed with the younger male. But Stanley's parents were being retired. I thought it sounded like a well thought plan, and the dogs were all absolutly excellent, not to mention "only" 800 dollars. So I decided, after viewing documents on hips, hearts etc. that apparently indicated a high likelyhood of good health for my pup, I decided to bring Stanley home with me. So far, I couldn't be happier. I guess he came from a BYB, but I prefer the term Hobby Breeder.

 

[Ivoryudx]

The following is a partial repost of something I wrote almost 2 years ago. It might help explain a few things. This is the link to the entire thread:

http://www.newf.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003175;p=

"Someone SAYING a dog fits the Standard but they do not compete for a Championship or having two or three Championships (CH) in a pedigree three or four generations back means nothing. Someone SAYING a dog is trained for Water/Draft/Obedience/Agility is nothing unless it has achieved those titles.

Read the pedigree and try to understand where the lineage comes from. Look for a common prefix name meaning those dogs were bred under the same person with some consistency. Many BYB, and Puppy mills have pedigrees with no consistency. You will find names like 'big John', or 'black Lilly', or every generation is a totally different name, meaning every generation a puppy was sold to someone who bred it, who sold it, who bred it and the cycle goes on with no thought to structure, temperament, or type. Just breeding registered dogs.

How many dogs does the breeder have of breeding age? I was on a BYB's website just yesterday and saw that she has 13 breedable female Newfoundlands listed. I know for a fact that this particular person does not breed for anything other than to produce Newfoundland Puppies, and ships all over the U.S. and advertises all over the Internet, Dog World, etc.... Her website looks good till you do the math.... realize she has never shown any of her dogs, they never go anywhere off the property just for fun, she does her own shots, the vet comes there when needed, the Newfs live in the kennel, and produce puppies.... the dogs are breeding stock, if they don't produce then they are sold/given away. Just talking to this person over the phone you would think she is a wonderful breeder and you are going to get a wonderful puppy from her because she LOVES her Newfies. Yes, she works hard, but is she just working to produce puppies for money.... Nothing else.

There are A LOT of Newf breeders, and there are more all the time so buyers must beware. Just because someone can talk the talk and does the health checks does not mean they have the best interest of the breed in mind. A good breeder has an image in their mind of what their perfect Newfoundland is, and it may be to your advantage to ask what that image is. A good breeder does not hesitate to compete or to show off their dogs, and to refer you to multiple people who either have puppies from them or from where their breeding stock comes from if their new breeders.

Many back yard breeders are organizing through the Internet and share dogs and information. So don't be surprised to find a whole network of individuals breeding Newfs in their barnyards and selling to anyone who has a fast buck."

Susan

 

[Sailorgirl]

One thing to think about is HOW the breeding pair is chosen. I think a lot of BYB's choose a breeding pair for convenience. Because they have a male and female and hey ... they're gonna do it anyway. But 9 times out of 10 that's not gonna be the right reason to do a breeding. EVERY dog has faults and it's important that those faults are offset by the dog's breeding partner. A reputable breeder, IMO, has a breeding PROGRAM. There goal is to achieve the perfect newf. OK .. the closest to perfect they can. That can take many, many generations to even get close to. For instance, say you have a girl with beautiful movement, great temperment but not as nice of a headpiece as you would like. Ideally you are going to find a stud with great temperment (I just don't think any newf WITHOUT a great temperment should be bred period as it is THE hallmark characterstic of the breed), at least good if not great movement and a nice headpiece. There is give and take in every breeding but it has to be a concious decision. When I was looking for a breeder (after making some mistakes orginally)two of my questions were "What are the goals for your breeding program?" and "What are you hoping to accomplish with this breeding, and/or faults you are hoping to work toward breeding out?"

If the answer was that their dogs were perfect and had no faults it was a "thank you for your time, goodbye," from me. If their answer regarding their breeding program goals was generic "to create beautiful puppies" then it was the same response from me.

So yeah ... sometimes there is a dog in a kennel that would be perfect to breed with a bitch from that same kennel, but it certainly can't happen all the time and if it does then I don't think the breeder is putting enough thought into and/or looking at their dogs/program with a critical enough eye.

However, this is one thing that I disagree with in this discussion. If there is a dog that HATES showing or HATES water work/carting, etc., then I don't think a person is a good breeder if they force their dog to do it just for the title so that they can be used in a breeding program. It's one thing for a dog to dislike certain aspects of training, but if a dog truly hates showing, for instance, but is a wonderful example of the breed, then, IMO, a GOOD breeder will decide that a championship is not worth their dog's misery.

 

[Ivoryudx]

IF a dog HATES showing, or HATES water work/carting, etc, then they should not be in a breeding program. Actually a look at what the 'trainer' is doing to cause a Newf not to like it needs to be addressed. THEN, if its the dogs personality, they should be removed from the breeding program no matter how well they supposedly fit the standard.

Newfoundlands are a working breed, if they don't have the temperament to do what they were originally bred to do, then something is wrong.

jmo,

Susan

 

[sarnewfie]

Sorry i disagree susan
if a dog does not like conformation, but, in the backyard gaits gorgous, has great temp and conformation, i believe it can be bred, OTOH i agree about the working aspect, and many do the work but dont get titled, in my humble opinion it doesnt take titles as much as common sense and knowing your dogs and being in dogs a long time, knowlege is a very good thing to have.
sometimes people may be as i am, frigging fearful of dang tests.
if i am that way the dog can and will fail.
not alwayus the the liklyhood is there.
also how remote an area are we from, sometimes water tests are way to far from some, even though excersise are done well in a lake they have and many can see they know their stuff without having to take a test.
of course this is very contraversial!
penny could not show conformation, she drove way to hard with her rear, in a natural situation, she gaits beautifully.
JMHO

 

[ardeagold]

IF a dog HATES showing, or HATES water work/carting, etc, then they should not be in a breeding program.

If a dog HATES showing it shouldn't be in a breeding program? Why? I don't believe that the Breed Standard mentions that a Newfoundland should be a dog who likes to "show".

I think your statement indicates that you feel to insure that a dog is a good example (or representative) of the breed, it must be shown. However, IMO hating showing and being a wonderful example of the breed have nothing at all to do with each other.

However, I do see the rationale behind not breeding a Newf who doesn't like doing the job he/she was bred for. That would totally go against the purpose of the breed, and the purpose, along with temperament ARE the hallmarks of the breed.

I wonder, though, how many CH Newfs who've never pulled a cart or a boat out of the water ARE being bred? How many really don't do well at one or the other, or both....or HATE it? And, what percentage of these are being bred by highly respected breeders?

[ 10-14-2005, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Ardeagold ]

 

[blstarke]

I look for a breeder that breeds for soundness in the newfie.
Tulsa's breeder does not show but there are championship lines in his bloodlines.
You can have a champion who is gorgeous yet will not produce yet you can have a mediocra newfie who will produce numerous champions.
The ROM title(register of merit) is very important.
To me, a BYB is someone who doesn't care anything about the breed and just breeds for the intentions of money.
If you are an honest breeder, you will never get rich from breeding

 

[darkwingnut]

I'M NOT A BREEDER [except for lots of baby squirrels and that's another issue]

I think it is important that the dog be shown. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and therefore the more eyes that eye a dog, the better the chance that it is a proper representation of the breed.

The fact that a particular breeder feels that (not to pick on anybody specifically) their dogs gait beautifully doesn't necessarily make it so. So why not show your dog and listen to comments and observations of others.

Surely something might be learned and the breeder might even learn that their assessment was correct, thus confirming it.

I agree with Susan about the dog having to be able to perform the work it was meant to do. Isn't that the reason behind the gait being the way it is? the structure the way it is?

 

[sarnewfie]

Darkwing
as you said
you are not a breeder, so your comment to me, is like water off a ducks back.
I am completly confidant in my decisions, my experience in the breed, etc. etc. etc..

 

[Sailorgirl]

Squirrelman ... you are right about one thing ... everyone thinks their dogs are gorgeous .. there's no doubt about it ... we are all biased in that way. However, to say that the only place a breeder could get feedback from other people knowledgeable in the breed is the showring is a misnomer. That's part of what being a breeder is about. When a judge awards a dog BOB they don't say ... you are BOB for movement, that other dog is BOB for its coat, that one over there is BOB for its head. That's where recognizing your dog's strengths and weaknesses comes in and how a breeder formats a breeding PROGRAM.

And Susan, I agree with you on the working aspect, but not the showing aspect. There is NOTHING about showing that has anything to do with the history of the breed and its purpose. In fact I think you could argue that showing is actually contrary to the breed's purpose. I'm pretty sure those newfs of long ago didn't spend hours being primped before they hopped on the fishing boat or spend any time at all learning how to stand properly for someone to look at them.

[ 10-14-2005, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Sailorgirl ]

 

[ardeagold]

DW...what you say is true, but if a dog HATES showing, it doesn't mean that it's not a spectacular representative of the breed.

And, just because a dog IS shown, and wins, doesn't mean that it's a better dog than the one who doesn't like the showring. It could be of a lower quality, in fact. The show ring is a strange and often puzzling place, as I'm sure many can attest to.

So...getting the dog out there for others to see, and evaluate, does not need to be done in a showring. Sure the CH is a great thing to have, but if a dog hates traveling, showing, etc, why make it miserable? Believe me, that lack of enthusiasm shows in the ring too...so why bother?

 

[darkwingnut]

Originally posted by Sailorgirl:
However, to say that the only place a breeder could get feedback from other people knowledgeable in the breed is the showring is a misnomer.

Funny, I never said that. I said I thought it was important, not the only place.

Just thought it was a place where other breeders might be able to comment and observe.

SAR, I specifically said that I wasn't trying to pick on anyone, yet you took offense. Sorry. (And it's darkwingnut, not this darkwing person who seems to have come before me).

 

[Ivoryudx]

Thats okay to disagree SAR, and I stand by what I wrote. To be honest though, I did not always think this way.....

The reason I believe strongly in this, is because I used to be one of those people who said, 'my dog is TRAINED through Utility'. I made comments and believed that I knew what some people were doing wrong in their training when I watched them in the ring. I also got very upset when someone, who I highly respected, told me, that until I had gotten a Utility title I could not SAY anything, because I had no proof that my dog could do it. I could say my dog was 'training' for Utility, but not that she could actually do Utility.

I was taken down a peg or two, and I became very determined, but what I learned was, until we had been through Utility and accomplished it, my dog really could not do it. Just because we could do it in the back yard, did not mean we could do it other places. It was a huge eye opener, and yes this is about a working event, but NewfYork hit it perfectly.

......breeding dogs with qualities or characteristics that they like or want. If everyone did that, who knows what the breed would look like, or what temperment they will have in future generations.

By not participating in working events, and/or Conformation events, there is no evidence of being able to do any of it, and there is no consistency. I know this sounds harsh, and sometimes physical distance from certain events makes it very difficult, but it can be done. I know someone who has driven over 8 hours one way to participate in Water Tests, trained by herself, and finally on the third trip, she got her WD. I also witnessed a gentleman who had never even seen a Water Test before and trained his dog alone, and traveled 4 hours to a test and passed the first time out, with a very good performance.

I understand fears of being tested, and I can certainly understand fears of drowning, etc. It is not easy, although working events are overwhelmingly testing the dog, and not so much the handler. (My dogs carry me through a lot of events!

) Yes, a handler can fail a dog, but the majority of the time, it is all on the dog.

I know many people who have put WRD's on dogs and have still not overcome their fear of nearly drowning at one time in their life. I have stood on shore, and waited in boats, watching for signs of distress from friends who were scared....and celebrated with them, when they got through it. I've also jumped in, to calm them in a panic too, but they set the pace, and they wanted to do it, because they wanted it for their dogs, in spite of their fears. I also know it is a very personal decision, when real fear is involved.

Susan

 

[sarnewfie]

What i learned doing Search and Rescue for six years, training hard, driving six hours one way twice a week to trainings, working hard all week airscenting, tracking, cadaver, water recovery, all of that, i have seen true instincts and yes, that is prolly the same level as utility or better, and working in natural settings, my experience with that is ten fold, and i know structure is most important to do natural lifesaving, so i am different in that i have totally different background, i do respect what you say susan, but, as a breeder myself, i do not agree on the "conformation ring" end of it.
i am sorry, i just dont!
darkwing, dont you have nutts to store for winter???

[ 10-14-2005, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: sarnewfie ]

 

[darkwingnut]

Originally posted by sarnewfie:
darkwing, dont you have nutts to store for winter???

That should be darkwingnut or as some folks have shortened it, DWN.

Yes, I do, but the union says I get breaks after every 2 hours of foraging.