Torn ACL

[Shifty]

First off, hello to everyone. I have been caught up in the real world quite a bit lately and although I still lurk from time to time, I haven't posted forever.

Not sure if anyone remembers our Landseer female Matilda. Matty was starting to get a little stiff in the rear, moreso than normal, so we took her to the vet for a quick checkup. They didn't find anything but gave her a weeks worth of Rimadyl to help with the stiffness and asked that we watch her closely. Needless to say she got substantially worse in about 72 hours. When I got ready for work yesterday I had two dogs running around me but was missing the third. I ran downstairs and the poor girl had basically gone lame in her left rear leg. Back to the vet and found that she has a torn ACL in her knee.
We've scheduled her for surgery next week and our vet does not perform this proceedure. We are currently scheduled with the animal hospital that they recommended for this but I am truly ignorant on the subject.

Can anyone recommend any questions that I should be asking prior to the surgery? Our vet took an xray and said it was torn all the way through but we would know more next week because the hospital would take some substantially more detailed xrays prior to the surgery.

I just hate to say "go ahead and operate on our baby" and send her off with alot of good intentions. If surgery is needed then by all means she will receive it, but I just want to make an informed decision. I don't want to have the surgery then find out that she's going to be in pain for the rest of her life with us, etc.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Mike

 

[sarnewfie]

Hi mike
nice to see you back!
if i recall correctly this subject has come up on newf-L and yes surgery is the only route for this problem.
from what i gather it is very painful.
give your girl hugs from us!
keep us posted on her progress

 

[Shifty]

Just curious Sar, when you say "very painful" were you referring to the injury itself, the surgery, the recovery, or all of the above?

Also, thanks for the Newf-L tip. I unsubscribed some time ago. It seemed like more & more personal issues were creeping into the articles as opposed to useful information. But, everything has a cycle and Newf-L is no different. Perhaps I'll re-subscribe today.

Thx again.

 

[sarnewfie]

the initial injury is painful
and newf-L is cycling again

delete more than i read that is fer sure! LOL
keep us posted on how you do ok?

 

[JerseyGirl]

Hi Mike

Sorry to hear about Matty's torn ACL. Our guy Monty had the surgery in January. If you want to email me privately I will galdly tell you all about the surgery and recovery. Be prepared its long. Good luck

Annette

 

[Mary]

Mike,
First of all hugs to Matilda. Gracie has been through 3 ACL repairs. The question I would ask the surgeon is see if he has done this surgery on large breed dogs. There is also different procedures out there one being the TPLO I believe which I would of opted for if it was an option at the time. You can find all kinds of vet articles etc on the internet. Read up on it all so you understand exactly the different procedures etc., I found that Gracie really didn't have much pain with the injury itself, of course she totally blew all the ligaments. I found the hardest was the first several days right after surgery. You may want to ask about a pain patch for Matilda to get her through those first several days. You may want to start Matilda on supplements also, you can discuss this with the surgeon for usually the surgery itself will cause some arthritis, nothing major but the supplements of the Glucosamine, Chondrotin and MSM may help in the healing also.
Good Luck,
Mary & "Gracie"

 

[tharris]

Fluffy has had TPLO on both of his knees. One blew a couple of years ago and the other this past February. The Dr. Betty Kraemek, the canine orthopod (!) at the University of MN vet hospital was excellent. I was very nervous leaving him for the first surgery, but he did so well and everyone seemed to be so good there that I was very comforable dropping him off, driving the 150 miles home, and picking him up a few days later. When he went in for his first surgery Dr. Kraemek showed me on his X-rays that his knees were at too sharp of an angle and told me that it was extremely likely that he would blow his other knee. According to the breeder, they have not had this problem with other dogs in their line.

I recommend you meet with the surgeon and see how comfortable you are with him or her, how many times they he or she has done the surgery, and why they think this is the correct procedure for your dog. Ask your vet why this surgeon was recommended. In my case, I got a call before the second surgery that Dr. Kraemek was unexpectedly called out of town and they asked me for permission for another vet to do it. After a lot of questions about his qualifications, I agreed. I don't see any difference between Fluffy's reaction to either surgery.

As far as pain, Fluffy never showed much. It was hard to see him hobble around, but he never looked to be in high pain, just clumsy, and more than a little like a shaved poodle . I did use the pain pills they prescribed, then switched to buffered asprin for a while.

The first surgery was less than $2000, the second was around $2200. Dr. Kraemek said that they "usually don't need to have the surgery on the same knee again". I really hope not.

Do as much on-line research on the surgery as you can. It should increase your comfort level. Let me know if I can help you in any way.

 

[NewfLove]

Mike, our Newf had two ACL surgeries before she was 1 yo. The most difficult thing was keeping her bandanges dry while she went to the bathroom. We had to wrap her leg up in plastic and tape it all along the bandage. Once, she did get it wet, and we had to go to the vet for him to change it lest she get an infection.

She did well (with the ACLs anyway) after she recovered from the surgeries. Fixed her right up!

Good luck to you.

Dianne

 

[tharris]

Ah, the bandages. I remember being told Fluffy couldn't get them wet. As soon as I helped him out of the car after his TPLO he faked that he was going to pee, then whe I turned my back to unload the car, he jumped in the lake. I was mortified and remember thinking that I was supposed to be in charge and should have prevented that.

The second surgery was in February, so the lake was frozen. I was thinking that that time

. However, this time he wasn't bandaged, so it wasn't an issue. It was much easier for both of us and, since he didn't pick at his stitches, it healed at least as well.

 

[Strshine7]

That is what happened to my Bailee earlier this summer. She wasn't bandaged at first when she came home...then she was (because it was weeping)... the bandage kept coming off and then the stitches kept coming out. After a visit to the emergency vet on the weekend and being restitched we decided (it was a mutual decision) to leave it alone not to restitch it a third time and let it heal on it's own. She is doing alot better and the wound is completely healed finally. We still aren't sure why the stitches kept coming out she wasn't licking it or running around. Dr said if he ever has to operate on her again she is getting staples.

It is always something! LOL

 

[Kuma]

My 1 1/2 year old had it done this past June. She's still recooperating. She didn't have bandages, mostly due to her size. She did have about 24 staples down the leg and a morphine like patch stapled to her hip for 4 days. The first couple of days were very hard on her and she was in a lot of pain. However, she's recovering very well. The hardest part is keeping them confirned for almost 2 months. Its been 8 weeks and she is now just allowed to go up the block and back. She barely limps anymore but we are folling the Doc orders to a tee. I don't want to put her through this again.
She was just 1 night at the hospital. I would highly suggest you have surgery when you are able to be home with her for 3 or 4 days. During her first two days of recovery she had a couple of accidents in the house. In the long run, you want her feeling better and waiting on the surgery can put the knee in more jeopardy.

 

[Shifty]

My wife & I honestly appreciate everyone's thoughts. We met with the surgeon twice and I spoke to a half dozen other surgeons via the phone all week. We were extremely comfortable with this surgeon and his staff after meeting with them. Matilda had her surgery yesterday (Thurs.) and is now home with us. We both have four day weekends so it made sense to go ahead and have it done when we did.

For lack of a better term, Matty is just bummin' right now. She's in some pain from time to time (this is the first time she has EVER whined or whimpered) but she's home so we can care for her and this morning that little Newfy twinkle was back in her eyes despite it all.

Again, thank you all for you input and positive thoughts.

Mike & Jen

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

I'm so glad Matilda came thru the surgery ok and is now home! She probably will be sore for another day or too, but I think in about a week or so you all will be glad you did it and it is over with.

Hope she continues to improve and your lives will be back to normal soon!

 

[bevicrocker]

I am seeing so much of the ACL injuries. Is there a way to prevent this from happening or does this have something to do with the dogs structure?

 

[chlandseers]

It is Dr. McCarthy's opinion (ortho specialist at Tufts) that it is conformation/structure related. I don't have my notes here but from what I recall, he said that most cruciate ruptures used to be caused by trauma. That is no longer the case. He said that Newfs have had a marked increase in cruciate ruptures- some from just walking across the yard. He said the ruptured cruciates he sees are mostly on dogs who have straighter rear angulation- less bend to the stifle.
John, Wheatley, Karen- do you remember what else he said? I'm in Washington (wow! what a beautiful state) and my notes are back home.

 

[bevicrocker]

I am very interested in this. Please tell me all you know. Thanks

 

[Shifty]

Our surgeon said the same basic thing. He said he breaks the dogs into three major catagories:
A. Severe Trauma injuries-car accident, etc.
B. Weekend warrior injuries-chasing a rabbit or playing fetch and stepping into a small hole, etc.
C. Confirmation injuries-rear angulation type problems, especially at a young age, that lead to a weakening or possibly a small tear in the ligament that later on "blows".

He said that the type "A" & "B" injuries are obviously fairly easy to spot but he was seeing an increase in the type "C" injuries over the past few years, especially in the larger breeds that they work on...Newfys, Saints, Mastiffs and BMD's.
I thought it was also interesting though that he stated that, at least among the clients that he sees, the large breed owners seem in general to be more informed about proper care of their dogs than some of the clients he saw ten years ago. If the owners are better informed than hopefully they are being a bit more critical of their dog's behavior(s) perhaps more of the type "C" injuries are making it to the vets before they become a bigger problem?

 

[sarnewfie]

ROM when you were at the seminar, did they give you a diagram of the proper angulation in the knee/stifle area.
i noticed many breeds are starting to get very straight in that area. i am sure there is a borderline somewhere, i am trying to stay with correct angulation.
so far knock on wood, i have never had to have any kind of corrective surgery on my guys.
i sent my information in to vet gen in their research on cruciate, according to her, she said that topmast lines dont apear to be affected by this and she is intrigued.
anyway, i have the breed standard here, but am wondering if the structure has changed any according to the vets and what they are seeing.
thanx.

 

[chlandseers]

I can't remember exactly what degrees the hip/stifle/hock joints are supposed to be. It's supposed to form a triangle. I think it's in an Illustrated Guide to the Standard. I have it at home.
At this point in their study, vet gen can only make generalizations based on what has been submitted to them.

 

[ArrowNewf]

Yes, Linda. You pretty much summarized what he said about cruciate tears. Great job from memory!

As far as the rear angulation being a huge part causing tears: I do know of 2 dogs that have torn their cruciate ligaments, that have beautifuly angulated rears...but he did say the "majority" of cruciate tears occur in dogs that have straighter rears,.. so perhaps my friends have just been in the minority.

All in all, it was a very interesting seminar!