Responsible breeding

[NewfMom]

I'm mom to our 5 year old newfie. She has hip dysplasia, bad elbows, and bad knees. She also has had cataracts since she was one year old. She also has some mild allergy problems.

Someone else got two litter mates from our same breeder a couple of years later. These puppies had the same mother as our dog. One of them died suddenly at a year old. The other has fragmented coronoid process.

I was contacted recently by someone who also bought a puppy from that breeder. It has different parents than our dog although the name of the mother makes me wonder if it is an offspring from our dog's mother. This new puppy has hip dysplasia and severe allergies.

My questions are:
- what level of defects from a dog's offspring would mean that a responsible breeder wouldn't breed that dog anymore?
- what kind of support should a responsible breeder give when puppies they've sold end up with severe defects?
- if a breeder is irresponsibly breeding a dog, what can be done about it?
- what health guarantees have people seen for newfy pups? We had a return the puppy within 6 months guarantee. However, giving our girl back after 6 months simply wasn't an option.

I'd appreciate your ideas on this and what to look for next time we go newfy shopping. My first resolution is not to wait to ask about OFA until the puppies are wagging their tails at me. It's way too easy at that point to say "Oh, it will be OK."

 

[newfvo]

Ok, I will jump in here with my opinion and please keep in mind that this is my own personal standard and the one that I personally judge potential new additions to my kennel.It doesn't make others right or wrong, just where I have set the bar.

1. I require ALL puppies (not just those I keep or show/breeding prospects)that I produce have hip and elbow xrays done at both 1 and 2 years of age. I also require they have their hearts checked by a cardiologist (they were cleared as a puppy by a cardiologist before leaving)at 1 year. If I do not have at least a 70% clearance ratio on hips and elbows or I have ANY hearts not clear, the dam is retired from my breeding program. Period. I do not breed the bitch for a second time until I have the results back from OFA for the 1 year evaluations. This sometimes means that I must wait an additional heat cycle to breed her but I feel that I need to know what I am producing prior to any breeding.

2. I don't believe that a person should have to give back their Newf just because it has health issues. My contract gives both the breeder and the owner the MUTUALLY agreed upon option to either take a replacement puppy from a mutually agreed upon litter (while keeping the original puppy) or a refund (while keeping the original puppy). Both options are done with the understanding that the owners have complied with all the conditions of my placement agreement. If at any time an owner wants to return a puppy I have produced they are welcome to do so.

3. I take an active role in finding the best solution to any health issues. Once the proper treatment is determined, then I take responsibility for the financial end up to a certain dollar amount. This is clearly spelled out up front in my contract. Again this is done with the understanding that the owners have complied with all the conditions of my placement agreement.

4. To my knowledge there is no mandatory guidelines set forth by the AKC, NCA or any other governing body that clearly spell out what constitutes good breeding standards. It is a gray area at best and open to a wide range of ideas. Education of breeders and an understanding of what they are producing and why is the key to the future health of our breed. As in all things, some choose to learn and others choose to stay stagnent.

I hope this is what you were looking for. Again, just my two cents.

 

[NewfMom]

Thanks for the responses. I really appreciate the support.

I would love to see breeders and the NCA / AKC come up with some way to disallow registration of puppies from dogs that had over a certain number of previous problems or certain types of problems. I don't think there's anything in the current registration structure to support it. I guess the best you could do would be to change the rules for ROM but I don't know if the dogs that make ROM tend to produce offspring with these types of problems. I have heard Germany's German Shepherd club put in some restrictions like this and really improved the health of their breed.

This breeder did screen his puppies' hearts. One puppy in our dog's litter had a problem show up that later cleared up. The breeder was not placing that dog with anyone. I believe we bought from the first litter for that breeder. At that time, the breeder only had the one dog who seemed adequately housed, fed, etc. I have no idea if she was getting everything else needed for a mother of new puppies but I assume she was.

On the OFA, I knew better at the time but I waited until we saw the puppies to ask. Next time I will verify it ahead of time. I also had spoken to some other breeders who were not interested in placing a puppy that was intended strictly as a pet. Also, I worked full time outside the house then. That disqualified us with some of the breeders. About 6 months after we got our girl, I started being home all the time. As it turned out, she didn't stay a pet as she has done some therapy dog work.

It's good to know a 6 month guarantee is not long enough. Our girl did start limping at 6 months and I wouldn't have known to look for a longer guarantee.

I applaud you both for your efforts to keep up the genetic health of the breed and for the support you give your puppies' owners. It reassures me to know people are really working hard to keep the breed healthy.

 

[Jeannie]

How wonderful it is to know that newf net has such responsible breeders on our list. I applaud each of you for your efforts to improve the Newfoundland breed as well as educate all the rest of us.

Slobbers to you!!

 

[sarnewfie]

i cant add a whole lot more than what was said but i would like to put up a beware buyer for those of you who are new.
Most times any newf kennel that has FARM in the name or FARM raised, i would steer clear of.
Anyone who Breeds more than 2 breeds i would steer clear of.
Anyone who USES CATCHY LINES or CATCHY SAYINGS such as DRY MOUTHED or anything that SOUNDS apealing, steer clear.
Anyone who has a website that is NOT educational, but is STEERING you to filling out a puppy application form online to pick your next puppy, steer clear.
i also am not inclined to fall for the line, raised in my home with my kids.
sorry but that is not the one most important thing.
dont know if some of this helps or not......
a contract of 6 months is crazy, most are now 18 months to 2 years.

 

[Shifty]

Let me add a quick question for the breeders also. Can someone explain to me what the phrase "GENOTYPICALLY CLEAR FOR CYSTINURIA" means? Was this dog actually tested or are we saying that there is no history of the disease in the past bloodlines?

Thx,
Mike

 

[ROM Newf]

The parents (or all grandparents) tested clear of the cystinuria gene so there is no way the pup can have cystinuria or carry the gene. The mode of inheritance for Cystinuria is simple recessive which makes things so much easier- and the fact that there is a DNA test for it. I've got cystinuria clears here (that were proven to be clear by the DNA test because they had a parent that carried the gene). As long as I breed them to dogs that are DNA tested clear or whose parents or grandparents all tested clear, then I don't have to test any of the offspring to find their status (clear or carrier).
Linda

 

[newfvo]

Linda is exactly correct in answering the question of how Newfs are cleared, either by actual blood test or by virtue of being the offspring of clear parents.

If I was interested in a puppy from a specific breeding where the parents were not tested because their parents were clear, I would want to see the actual clearance of the grandparents (remember the DNA marker for cystinuria was only available starting in 1998)and if I was planning on using the puppy in a breeding program, I would want DNA testig to insure that the puppy and parents were actually desendants of the cleared line.

While I would hope that by the time I had decided to get a pup from a specific breeder I would trust them enough to know they speak the truth, oops's can happen. Also, less then stellar breeders are using the "my dogs are clear because they come from clear lines" excuse to not spend the money to test for this disease that thanks to the marker, we could eradicate from the breed in 3 generations!

 

[newfvo]

Linda is exactly correct in answering the question of how Newfs are cleared, either by actual blood test or by virtue of being the offspring of clear parents.

If I was interested in a puppy from a specific breeding where the parents were not tested because their parents were clear, I would want to see the actual clearance of the grandparents (remember the DNA marker for cystinuria was only available starting in 1998)and if I was planning on using the puppy in a breeding program, I would want DNA testig to insure that the puppy and parents were actually desendants of the cleared line.

While I would hope that by the time I had decided to get a pup from a specific breeder I would trust them enough to know they speak the truth, oops's can happen. Also, less then stellar breeders are using the "my dogs are clear because they come from clear lines" excuse to not spend the money to test for this disease that thanks to the marker, we could eradicate from the breed in 3 generations!

 

[sarnewfie]

Sue
your posts always are double, is that my puter?
i have been told that two cleared parents with the DNA test are safe to say pups are clear.
i am not sure i understand you guys, you are saying blood test, we use the swab, is there also conflicting opinions on wich is better?
i have heard conflicting opinions on both methods, is there ever one method that is preferred? this gets so frustrating.
the oldies i have talked to said that pups out of cleared parents do not need to be tested, so now i am hearing that generations of cleared parents need to be in order before promising the pups are cleared.
this stuff gets very frustrating to me, who wants to do things correctly and to give good information to my puppy buyers.
i am going to ask these people again.
to be sure.
After talking to a few people on this i have found out that even when they did test a litter out of cleared parents all the pups came back cleared, so as DNA is foolproof and solid evidance that they do not carry nor are they affected, how than can we say that generations back that were not tested, means that the pups out of cleared parents should be tested?
just trying to put two and two together.
i also had a few people tell me that if the DNA aint on the sqwab it is rejected and they keep trying until they get enough, wich on one male in bloodhounds it took 9 times to get enough dna on the swab, others have no problem, mine didnt.

[ 01-08-2003, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: sarnewfie ]

 

[Sherry in California]

test

 

[Angela]

I have a question for the breeders here.
If you had a bitch who was a cystinuria carrier, all other clearances were good, hips, elbows, heart, CERF, then would you go ahead and breed her? I understand it's OK to breed to a cystinuria clear sire.

 

[sarnewfie]

Angela,
what i have been told, it is ok to breed a carrier to a normal or (non affected or non carrier}, the pups though must be tested, becouse some may be carrier and some normal or (non affected.)
i have also been told and common sense says an affected should not be bred to anyone.
in time hopes are, this can be bred out of lines completely.

 

[ROM Newf]

SAR Newf said: i have been told that two cleared parents with the DNA test are safe to say pups are clear.
ROM: Yes. That is correct. I would ask to see the DNA test results on both parents before committing to a puppy or allowing my dog to be used as a stud.

SAR: i am not sure i understand you guys, you are saying blood test, we use the swab, is there also conflicting opinions on wich is better?

ROM: Dr. Giger said prior to the 2000 National that he prefers the blood test- only because he knows he will definitely get samples that he can run his test on. As you mentioned re: the bloodhound, if the cheek swab isn't done correctly, there are no tissues in which to test which means having to do more cheek swabs. This wastes Dr. Giger's staff's time and money as well as your time (and money). Means that they've got to send you more swabs and you've got to run the swabs on the cheeks, mail it back and wait longer. I know that when my vet draws that blood, puts it in the purple-topped tube, and ships it out via overnight mail, that Giger will have blood to do his test. (As an aside, I pay for the shipping cost and Giger's test fees but my vet doesn't charge me for drawing the blood or packaging it for shipping.)

SAR: the oldies i have talked to said that pups out of cleared parents do not need to be tested, so now i am hearing that generations of cleared parents need to be in order before promising the pups are cleared.

ROM: Susan is saying that mistakes happen- you think this dog cleared but in fact, was a carrier. When you've only got a couple dogs it's easy to keep track of but if you've got more than a couple, a person might unintentionally forget (I'm giving credit to breeders that they are honest- of course we all know some who aren't) that dog X did not clear. As we get older, we have more senior moments.
Susan wants verification that this dog is out of these parents-
Genetically, if the parents are clear, the offspring is clear. If all the grandparents are clear, then the parents are clear and the puppies are clear but let's ask for some verification for the reasons mentioned above (senior moments or mistakes or deceit)

SAR: After talking to a few people on this i have found out that even when they did test a litter out of cleared parents all the pups came back cleared, so as DNA is foolproof and solid evidance that they do not carry nor are they affected, how than can we say that generations back that were not tested, means that the pups out of cleared parents should be tested?

ROM: huh? DNA is supposed to be foolproof. If parents are tested and come back as clear, then puppy will be clear. Testing puppy will just verify that there was no mistake made with the parents (mix ups by Giger's office- or mix ups in labeling the shipping tube or mix ups in labeling the swab). Our Ebony was tested via blood test by Dr. Giger right after the DNA test came out (her grandsire was one of the original affected dogs- same grandsire as Morgan's great-grandsire on her dad's side). Ebony's sire was a carrier because his father was affected and could only throw a carrier (cystinuria) gene. (Morgan's grandfather was a carrier). I got back TWO different reports from Dr. Giger's office! One said she was clear. The other said she was a carrier!! They retested and she was a carrier. Mistakes happen.


SAR: i also had a few people tell me that if the DNA aint on the sqwab it is rejected and they keep trying until they get enough, wich on one male in bloodhounds it took 9 times to get enough dna on the swab, others have no problem, mine didnt.

ROM: Right, if there isn't any DNA on the swab then Giger can't do the test. I do the blood test for the reasons above.
Linda

 

[ROM Newf]

SAR Newf said (in response to Angela's question) it is ok to breed a carrier to a normal or (non affected or non carrier}, the pups though must be tested, becouse some may be carrier and some normal or (non affected.)

ROM: If the pups are going to homes where they will be bred, they should be tested. If the pups are going to pet homes (and spayed and neutered) , there is no real need to test them as they will not have disease and it doesn't really make any difference if they are carrier or not (other than for the breeder's knowledge).
Linda

 

[sarnewfie]

Thanx ROM
ok i knew DNA was proof positive, i got confused by sue wanting to see the previous generations cleared!
thanx.
and thanx for that last paragraph, just that some breeders may want to have the pups tested to make sure of what is going on as far as the ratio of carrier and normals they would get.
and to add to the data base that dawn fretts is building up.

 

[dogger]

As long as all the breeders are here... has anyone ever heard of selling a pet quality puppy on a breeding contract? Before we got our first Newf I had never even heard of such a thing. Would this be a red flag issue?

 

[newfvo]

I would wonder why, if the puppy was evaluated and found to have a deviation from the standard that would render it of "pet quality", a breeder would want to possibly pass along the deviation.

I can understand if a puppy that was sold to people that are not interested in the showring turns out to be a great example of the breed and passes all clearances as an adult that a breeder might ask to use the Newf in their breeding program. Was the breeder in your case leaving the door open in case the puppy developed into something or were they saying that the puppy was to be bred even if it was sold as "pet quality"?

Susan

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

Dogger, your situation sounds a little like mine. I got Rory when she was 5 mo because the breeder thought that she was going to be too small to show and her back was not straight. But now she is a year old and she has grown to breed standard and with exercise, her back muscles have strengthened and her back is straight. So now the breeder is encouraging me to show her. So what I am seeing, is that the conditions that qualify a pup as pet quality may in fact correct themselves through growth, now making the pup show quality. Of course some problems may never correct themselves and the pup will always be pet quality. So maybe your breeder is leaving the door open for you and her in the future. Unfortunately, I do want to breed Rory, but my breeder wants me to show her first which I really am not interested in doing. I hate to have her spayed just because I don't want to show her, but I guess I am going to have to.

 

[sarnewfie]

newf york is right, at times the least promising pup can turn out the swan of the litter.
also some dogs dislike showing to the point of pouting or gaiting poorly when in actuality they have beautiful movement.
a for instance.
a malmute i know had the best drive i have ever seen, a friend of mine owned him, but once she brought him in the ring? instant sulk, and loss of attitude, his tail went down, ears at half mast, and the gait?
to watch him move outside the ring, away from the building was beautiful to watch, so to get a CH on some otherwise beautiful dogs, it may not be possible due to these factors.
i keep the door open with coownership on promising pups that i think will turn out, but if they dont, we spay or nueter.