Prong (pinch) collar

[robandrobin]

Nutsycat
I can't give any advice since I feel I am too new at this too, BUT!!
I put rubber tips on the prongs to make sure nothing sharp could hurt him. I felt better about it because I was very scared when I was first taught how to use a prong collar! Plus, everything is prone to rust up here in our lovely temperate rain forest!!
Robin

 

[IrishMist428]

Daniam,
I was told that it should fit like a watch band. Certainly not tight but unable to rotate and kept high on the neck. The only problem I found was the prong sometimes come apart. So I took Brenda's advise and use a second collar for safety.

 

[janices]

Any training collar can be misused. Shouldn't be doing jerk leash corrections with head halters or the dog can get injured. Same goes for prongs.

The head halter closer simulates a leadership action, nose piece over the muzzle, watch them some time bump the muzzle. Dogs are disciplined by elders by quick inhibited bite across the muzzle not by biting into the scruff of the neck. Prongs pinch into the neck. Prong on the wrong dog the pinching into the neck simulates biting which means to them challenges to the hierarchy which means a fight can result. There's a reason prongs not recommended to be worn on dogs prone to aggression or timid or fearful or soft dogs.

I've heard this supposed study on prongs brought up over and over and over again. The problem is no one's been able to show me where it is or other people who've questioned it. Even had a big discussion on a list once and no one knows where to find this but just keep claiming it exists.

 

[Annie Milliron]

Laurene...

I do belive that prong collars can be beneficial, when used properly. We use one with Kira, and we used one with Sadie. In fact, had it not been for a prong collar, I don't know if we could have kept Sadie. I had no control with her... she dragged me down 3 times.. I was hurt badly each time. Once of these incidents occured as we were leaving for obedience class (don't you just love the irony?).

As we were driving to the club, Russell told me that he thought we needed to give Sadie back to rescue, because I couldn't control her. I became very upset. I was crying as we walked into the club, and one of the instructors immediately came up and asked what was wrong.

I sobbed out the entire sordid story. She suggested a prong collar. I was horrified. I cried out "They're inhumane and cruel". She laughed at me, took my arm and escorted me to the club's shop. She showed me the collar, but it on my arm, so that I could feel it's pinch, which to my surprise wasn't bad.

Then, she asked one of the oldtimers to come in and help us get a proper fit. He showed us how to use it properly. The difference was instantaneous and amazing.

Not all dogs need a prong. Some can get by with a buckle collar, some can get by with a choke. It depends on the dog.

Bottom Line: Whatever type of collar you choose to use, the most important thing is to learn how to use it properly.

 

[Odri]

Hi janices,
Of course you are absolutely right, I have heard that veterinary studies showed the prong is more humane, but never the source. So I took it as a research challenge, and I didn't get to the source quite but I got a little closer. The study was done in Germany, and I have no idea what German journal has that information, but I found out that the study and it's results were described in the magazine "Your Dog", volume V, number 10, published by Tufts Veterinary School. I got that information and the Tufts sum up of the study here:
http://207.148.228.201/alumni/heal03b.html
Not having easy access to veterinary journals (we don't have a vet school here), that's as far as I can take you towards the original source. As for actual studies that have either countered that claim -or- replicated it, I wasn't able to find either, and I wonder if anyone has revisted the question at all, positive or negative. I tend to doubt it. I'm with you in that I sure wish they would.
Despite our collar differences, I have a great deal of respect for your resistance to third hand accounts of things and wanting to know the source and study.
Audrey
P.S. Yes, I realize that it doesn't counter your claims in that it compares the prong to the choke and does not consider the buckle.

[ 03-02-2003, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: Odri ]

 

[Ivoryudx]

****Janice wrote:
Dogs are disciplined by elders by quick inhibited bite across the muzzle not by biting into the scruff of the neck. Prongs pinch into the neck. Prong on the wrong dog the pinching into the neck simulates biting which means to them challenges to the hierarchy which means a fight can result. There's a reason prongs not recommended to be worn on dogs prone to aggression or timid or fearful or soft dogs. ****

Overall I agree with the above statements, but I have to elaborate a little....These ideas and expected responses are based on primitive, basic, canine behavior, and its been my experience when dealing with problem dogs they do not always react as predicted. So, every situation needs to be evaluated, BEFORE an action is taken.

I have put pinch collars on puppys, timid dogs, aggressive dogs, soft dogs, and fearful dogs - I have also chosen NOT to do it too. It all depends on how I'm reading the dog, and WHY I think the dog is behaving like that in the first place. If its a true reading that the dog is aggressive, then of course, no pinch is going to make it better, BUT if its a learned behavior to get its way, then I will work up to putting a pinch on it. Starting with a buckle, choke, halti if needed, and even roll the pinch with the prongs out. This can take months or minutes, it all depends on the dog.

Just to educate a little....pinch/prong, chokes, even tight buckle collars should not be left on the dog when your not there. If a buckle collar is left on the dog, when your not there, it should be loose enough for the dog to slip out of. No tags should be hanging loosely, tape them up to the collar if they need to wear them.

A pinch/choke should be used for training, just as cookies, it goes away when the training is over. It should fit around the dogs neck with very little pressure, but not hang loose. Use a MEDIUM size link....some people believe the smaller links look more humane when in fact they are sharper and give a more biting correction....The large and extra large are too big, to size correctly - if you take one link out, its too small, and if you put an extra in, its too big. The wire is also very thick and does not give the pinching effect the same as the medium, and a good Premier collar can be of better use.

I personally use every type of collar/halti I need. They all work when used for what they were intended for. Knowing the dog, AND the tools is the key.

Susan

 

[Newfs Forever]

Janices,

I agree with you. I have used the clicker method with Dex and at least he is reasonable. Certainly not the most obedient dog, but manageable. I have also used the halti/gentle leader on him and frankly he is alot more controllable.

ROM,

This is the first time I have heard about injuries from the halti/gentle leader. Maybe my head has been buried in sand But, when I have used them with Dex I don't have to correct him at all. To me it's just better control for both of us. So I am curious if those that have sustained injuries have been "jerked" alot with the halti/gentle leader?

PS. Did you have any trouble getting back from Florida, due to the "dusting" we got over Presidents Day?

Sue

 

[ROM Newf]

Hi Sue,
My understanding re: the halti collars and gentle leaders is 2 things. The first is the incorrect use of these collars- jerking, yanking. The second is a large number of the dogs when introduced have done a lot of thrashing. My daughter was told this by a vet in the area- that it was something he had read in one of his journals. One of the puppies who lives in NH was at the first Cabin Fever held in Warwick. The people had just gotten the halti and Nicki (the puppy- 9 mos old at the time) was frantic with it. She kept thrashing trying to get out of it. They put the choke collar on her and she was absolutely wonderfully behaved. They thought they would have problems with the choke (pulling, etc) but didn't.
In the end, it all is in the knowledge of the user. If they don't receive instruction and guidance in using them properly then there is going to be an increase in the number of injuries.

As for my wonderful vacation, what can I say? The New Jersey turnpike was closed due to fog so we had to find an alternate route. There was more snow in Delaware and NJ than here -judging from the snow banks on the side of the road. I arrived home to ice covered kennel runs and an icy path leading out to the runs. It's been raining since last night so hopefully alot of this snow and ice will be gone soon and spring will be here. Spring has already arrived in southern NC where people had pansies planted and we saw the robins in SC. There is hope that it will eventually arrive here.
Linda

 

[FuzzyDustBunnies]

This has been a great topic!

I've been a little confused myself on "which is best".

There's a website www.flyingdogpress.com that has some articles on it about prong collars and the halti/gentle leaders. If you click on artilces, you'll see them there. I tried to add a link, but it didn't work. Maybe my computer needs some sort of training device on it!

 

[FuzzyDustBunnies]

AHA! Just the threat of whipping my computer into shape did it! I had NO idea typing in the address would have it come up as a link! BIG lightbulb for me today!

 

[janices]

Most of the problems coming from prong collars is people just putting prongs on their dogs, dogs have not been evaluated to know because there's an inexperienced dog owner, a lot of trainers who put up signs I'm a dog trainer and don't really know what they're doing or how to put a prong on or how to use one, and outdated information sitting on the internet. The same goes for head halters, incorrectly getting the dog used to them, and using them incorrectly.

We're having a good debate with various people who use various training methods. I chose not to use them after seeing if they are there their can be a high propensity for misuse. Especially if it's someone going crossover, learning something new. Same can be said for head halters.

 

[Kodiak]

Karen is right about being careful using the prong collar. I was taught at obedience classes how to measure the neck, what size prong to choose, how to put it on my newf/dog and most importantly, how to use it. Also, to clip it to a second collar for security since sometimes the prongs can come undone.

 

[Odri]

From the website linked to by FuzzyDustBunnies: "In all these cases, to ignore the prong collar as a useful alternative to standard training collars may well be likened to teaching a pig to sing. It frustrates you, and annoys the pig."

It's funny now, but when I was using a nylon training collar that's exactly what I felt like, and exactly what my dog thought about the nylon choke. In the face of some very valid misgivings I would add that although it has been a great success for me, no, I don't think it is a general panacea, or appropriate for dogs who are very soft, nervous, or aggressive (I don't know about the aggressive, but I trust you guys on that one).
I am a novice dog owner, though I have studied a lot about dogs and training. I use the prong with a lot of positive reinforcement. The prong has made a world of difference to me, and to Ajax, but I should add that Ajax is confident, gregarious and rambunctious, without any aggression. We are also introducing the collar in conjunction with obedience training, on the advice of the teacher and under her instruction and demonstration.
Though I'm stepping back from recommending it generally, I would, however, recommend it for those of you who are -already- using either nylon or metal chokes correctly, but corrections are not effective, or your dog coughs against it, as a more humane and more effective way.
And, FuzzyDustBunnies and janices, I agree, this is a great debate. I have learned a lot.

Audrey

 

[dogger]

Most of the problems coming from prong collars is people just putting prongs on their dogs, dogs have not been evaluated to know because there's an inexperienced dog owner

posted by Janice

One of my reps told me today that over the weekend a young couple (19?) was walking past her yard with pit bull. he was on a pronged collar and dragging them down the street. He was agressive and barking and totally out of control. My rep told them. the dog is not on the end of that leash, you are and he knows exactly where you are. You need to get that dog to obedience... NOW. that they were looking to for a world of trouble if they did not do something about the dog. Are you ready for this??? they asked where do you go for obedience classes? it had never even occured to them and They were using the collar with out knowing how, not to mention they have a pet who is potentially dangerous especially without obedience.
Any way, this is a prime example of why one should know how to use the collar.

 

[mduarte13]

The trainer that I go to, and have used for 7 years now, does not recommend them. He has been training for 15 years, involved in animal conrtol, rescue, lots of different aspects of dogs. He has seen puppies become aggressive due to prong collars...the example he used is that dogs associate the correction with what they are looking at...so, pup goes to dog school, pulls to another pup, gets the correction....associates the correction with the dog. etc etc...eventually, the dog associates the correction with other dogs, and MAY, and I say MAY, become aggressive. Personally, I do feel that there is a right and wrong way to use them, and if used correctly, I am sure they can be helpful in some situtions. I do not feel they should be used with puppies or young dogs, however.

Michelle

 

[afreas]

Ok, what the heck.

Our trainer didn't reccomend any type of choke or prong collar. Not due to any ethical issue but just due to plain practicality. His opinion was that dogs just got too used to them and they stopped working. Given that I have had Kimber about pull me off my feet when she was younger while three quarters choking herself on a regular collar I can easily believe this. His reccomendation was the promise type. Dog's can't get used to them like they can a choke or prong. The promise works through plain mechanical advantage. The important thing with the promise though it that you have to pull to the side with them. If you pull straight back the dog has a much greater advantage. You really use the promise to lead the dog in a different direction not to really stop them.

ART

 

[macgirl13ca]

OK, my 2 cents. I've used a prong collar before, on my neighbours abused king shepherd, simply because I agreed it was like 'power steering' the dog was uncontrollable without it, and I was the only one willing to walk / feed / water the dog.
Up until a month ago, Bubba did not have a prong collar. He is still staying at my parents during the day, and they quit walking him because he pulled. Why I don't know he never pulls with me. (unless someone calls him or he sees 'a new friend') in which case, yes he pulls and it was very hard to stop him.
I bought a prong collar for Bubba as a 'last resort' for my parents, taught them how to use it, and they can now walk him without him dragging them, when we meet new people, and he starts to charge to meet them, I give him a quick tug and he knows to stay by me, as well as if someone comes to the door, it goes on and he doesn't go crazy. I know some will say this could all be solved by 'proper training', but I tried, and in my humble opinion, this is training and I hope a day will come when he doesn't need to prongs to know to behave himself in these situations. OK, by the length of this, maybe it was about $2 worth instead of 2 cents.

 

[evergano]

I can see this topic has been beat to death by people with lots of experience BUT...since choke collar were completely NOT permitted by our trainer we had to use a Halti. I have used it before and LOVE it, though am not completely anti-prong. I just like the gentle look and mechanics of the Halti.

True some dogs are more than annoyed by the Halti, but our trainer suggested using the Halti for every good experience in its early days. IE, feeding time - Halti, car ride - Halti, play time - Halti. Our dog LOVES to put his nose in the Halti because he knows something good is going to happen.

True he still rubs up on us like a cat...but we think thats kinda cute.

 

[thoroughly newfyized]

Just want to encourage you...Don't feel guilty or insecure about using a prong collar....Six months is the age they are very ready for you to use this collar, which helps them to better understand your language, in a way that is more canine-appropriate and far more humane than the choke collar or constant negative screaming and aggravation. You are the alpha...the leader, and must issue clear commumication in a language he understands. If his canine mom were issuing a correction, she would usually use her teeth at the scruff of his neck and even give him a little shake. The prong gives this same form of message and therefore we see 'miraculous' instant responses from the pup as though they're saying, "I get it now!...so that's what you mean!!" The prongs are rounded and smooth, not sharp, and apply just the right amount of pressure with very little assistance from the human mom..very often, in the case of pulling, etc. the pup will self-correct. In cases of a very touch-insensitive dog, a very quick jerk/release action does the trick. Again, don't feel guilty about finally communicating effectively to your little charge that YOU are the boss and he can relax in your care. One more tip that really helped me...leave the collar on indefinitely, except when he is crated or unattended, and don't remove the collar as he needs to be conditioned to obedience...kind of like having his sunday clothes on. This is not always an overnight fling, as training rarely is. Hope this helps and email me privately if you need more info...

 

[Aika]

Very interesting thread. I read all 4 pages. I've been using the prong on my almost 10 month old 100 + pound girl and it is working great. I have tried different harnesses, and positive training since she was a little fluff ball. And she was learning how to walk without pulling very nicely but than she got to be 10 months and things went a little crazy. She decided to bolt towards things/people she wanted, and I could not risk the danger in these unpredictable situations. I finally found a trainer willing to show me how to fit and use the prong collar. Aika and I are both enjoying our walks. She seems more confident and happy. She hears the sound of the prong when I grab it and she runs to me with a happy face ready for me to put it on because she knows that means a walk. I take her for walks around my city, try to find different places and less crowded places so she always has something new to explore and I give her lots and lots of praise for heeling. I also have her sit and stay for a few second every some many feet, at which point I check on the collar and give her a piece of hot dog and a kiss. I really hope to take her off the collar in the near future because she is very smart and willing to please. I know she is learning fast. In fact thanks to the prong collar we are both learning about each other and understanding body language.