Newf Size vs. Longevity

[pabusinesswoman]

In a few other posts, there were discussions of newf size and life span of the newf. My wheels have been turning.

I have been considering a Landseer pup in a year or so and have pretty well narrowed down the breeder.

Though health and longevity is 1st priority, I have often wondered what would happen if I purchased a male pup and he grows quite large. I had a chow that lived to 11 years, but had ortho issues all of her life. Thus, I have been very concerned about the ortho issues in the larger breed and try to educate myself as much as possible. Beautiful as some of the larger dogs are, I have always heard bigger is not necessarily better.

I never really considered the size issue with my female, since I have never seen an 180lb, female. Mosty lines I had researched at had both the bitches and the dog in the range of the standard.

Thus for the benefit of gaining knowlege/ educating myself, I thought I would ask a few questions.

In the above stated posts, the priorities of the breedings were health, structure, and gait first (adhearing to the AKC standard). Size was a last priority. They were just big dogs.

I am assuming several of these factors have been taken into consideration when writing the standard. Thus, why the range for the standard states the upper end of the average at 150 lbs.

For the sake of consistency, I am refering to a larger newf as those above the upper end of the standard.. IE. 150 lbs+; particular interest in those around 180 lbs. and it is a solid heathy dog.. not a butter ball. What does that extra 30 lbs do in the big scheme of things?

I'm getting long winded, so here are my questions:

Size vs. Longevity
Is there statistical data comparing size of a newf vs longevity. IE. How long a 110 lb dog would live comparing to an 180 lb. newf?

If so, is there a threshold where longevity decreases, and what factors to you think attribute to that? (Ex. if the threashold was 9 years for larger newfs vs 13 years for smaller and the larger size causes more stress on cardio etc)

Sex vs. Longevity
Would the sex of a larger newf affect longevity? IE. Has anyone seen that female larger newfs live longer than males?

Size vs. Amount of Ortho. Issues/ Ages Ortho. Issues arise
Many larger newfs I have met have ortho issues. I know there are some out there that have had healthy lives at larger sizes. Is there statistical data that correlates size with ortho issues? IE.. Is there a particular size in which ortho issues seem to increase?

Are the answers to these questions as a general rule? Or, would the answers vary per lines?

Thanks for taking the time to look at my inquiry. Your input is appriciated.

 

[Jorge's mum]

I don't really know enough to answer your questions, but as you know Jorge is large and has (touch wood!) always been healthy- he is 5yrs almost! His dad never made it past 10yrs but he did have diabetes that I was told wasn't managed very well...he ended up blind due to this Jorges mums lines lived to around 12yrs. I do worry hence my middle aged thread...as I obviously want him to live forever!! I will watch this thread with interest!

 

[janices]

I don't think there is statistics you're looking for.

Something that's just an observation. The bigger they are the harder it seems to be to slow up the growth or we have puppy buyers who think bigger is better. Stressing slow growth is better seems to be harder for some reason. They're all going to get to size should be eventually.

I did breed to a male with lots of bone and up in 170 lbs range that did have all clear clearances, OFA Hips Exellent. He's turning 10 this year and from what heard still in good shape for his age. My female is a very feminine bitch, 27" and 105-110 average weight.

Males in litter are 30", 29", 28" and females 28", 27". At 21 mos males are around average 130 lbs and females average 95 lbs. I've had to keep stressing slow growth constantly during critical growth phase because look at sire and how big is. My 2 just went across again and gained 5 lbs overnight and puppy owners seeing same as they are just filling out. But both lines on each side don't really finally fill until 4 yrs old. Very slow maturing.

The 5 are actively showing and training working. Nobody old enough for final clearances yet so until then I'll know what results across are. Nobody showing obvious signs of problems which to me doesn't mean much. I do know I have 1 elbow that won't pass on my boy. He ran a jump over back of couch as a puppy that I couldn't stop from doing fast enough and starting having some problems and ran prelims. He's doing fine and takes nothing more than supplements and is active boy.

I've found unless been in breed awhile the hardest thing for some to do is slow growth and not overweight during critical growth phases and actually not let get overweight as age.

 

[Cascadians]

One of the biggest dog shows in the western USA was here, Rose City Classic, and Orka & I went to the Newfie specialty all day Wednesday as observers.

So many Newfs! Very interesting to watch conformation. Last year I went to the show pre-Orka and so the comparisons were amazing to me. Some of the dogs I thought were huge last year are smaller than Orka and he is only 13 months old. In fact he simply is already one of the biggest Newfs there and is not fat but very muscular. He is taller than almost all there, a big strong bear, also more playful and puppyish than most, and very well behaved for the most part in most ways, although he flops down to get cool more than the others. And more vocal but I already knew that. He makes a whole range of very soft noises under his breath to express himself when he knows he cannot bark howl bay yodel sing etc.

The dog that won the puppy 12-18 month range was 13 months also so very interesting to compare. His name is Newman (not sure of spelling) Pouch Cove now at Nakiska and he was enormous, gorgeous with a head 4x bigger than Orka's. Newman also had a great personality and looked very healthy. He is a striking dog, the one that got my attention all day even when with different ppl and I had no idea who he is. What an amazing Newf! Does not even look like anything else in this world. His consciousness and gaze are clearly different and I have never seen a dog that looks like him. Hoping to see him again.

One could tell looking at all these Newfs together that size is not the prime criteria for breeding since there were not many enormous Newfs. In fact there were a lot of small Newfs. Surprisingly small, and in the majority.

Some of the folks I was sitting next to were discussing their Newf's health issues and there's a lot of problems out there in lines I'm familiar with. And I talked to a breeder who frankly surprised me with her attitude about health clearances; she didn't seem gung-ho about testing.

Can't answer the longevity questions but know already that health soundness is so incredibly important and in my mind should be the #1 goal of good breeding. From what I saw here size is not the #1 goal so that's a relief.

It would be nice if breeders understood that owners want healthy dogs, love their dogs, want them to be happy, and don't want huge vet bills, and don't want their furkids to suffer. It seems so simple to me, so that attitudes out there are difficult to understand.

 

[Clifford the big dog]

Great questions, sorry I have no answers. I never thought to ask if males or females tend to live longer. There must be stats for that.

 

[bears_dad]

I believe the quality and quantity of low protein food when they are growing attribute to their adult size. The slower they grow the smaller the adult dog. Keeping the pups and young adult dogs lean while their bone structure is growing has an effect on the orthopedic issues for sure. It also seems that having a male neutered to early will cause more growth height wise due to the hormone usage for other than what nature intended.

 

[pabusinesswoman]

Leska,

I enjoy watching conformation also.. when I can get to one. We have 2 local AKC shows over in Harrisburg, the Blue and Grey Cluster in the spring and another local show in the fall. I have never been able to make the fall show just due to timing of my 7 year old's birthday. Last year I had to miss the spring show due to a surgery. I am really hoping to make it over. (crossing fingers). Nationals will be in the local in 2012.. really want to make it to Carlisle for that one.

I really like attending some of the Newf Club gatherings also. It allows you to ask questions in a more relaxed atmosphere... and you can pet the dogs. (Learned that one the hard way at the first show I attended )

Sadie's sire is from Pouch Cove. I have always liked the look of their lines. However, if you look at their pedigrees, it is interesting to see how many good lines have came together to produce what you see. There are also several other lines that produce gorgeous pups.

If you like the shows, you may want to look into the pedigrees. Peter had a link on here for a Newfoundland Database, originally started in Germany. I spent some time looking through pedigrees and connections... especially when researching Sadie. It is pretty neat. You can spend a lot of time starting with a name of a dog you seen then searching the pedigree.. if it has a kennel your not familiar with.. see if you can find more about that kennel .. etc.

As I was thinking how "cool" the database was, I have to say my breeder did floor me. She had so many pedigrees memorized from doing this so long that if I could mention a dog/ bitch she could resite the pedigree for a minimum of 4 generations for almost anyone I mentioned off of the top of her head.

Most, not all breeders I have spoken to put health as #1. If they didn't, I scratched them off my list. I had researched the breed over a year prior to purchasing a newf. Though there are no guarantees when dealing with a living creature, I wanted to put all odds in my favor to have a healthy, happy dog that would hopefully live a long time. Size was never a requirement. I was just curious about the topic... the what if senario. Some of the breeders I spoke with have required additional DNA/ cysternia testing as part of their contracts to help get more data to try to help better the breed in the long term.

The post inquiry tries look at dogs/bitches that were produced by adhering to the AKC standard so that it helps to remove some of the other factors. This taking into consideration heath, structure, and gait and primary breeding factors. The size consideration is just if there was a large pup out of the litter. Perhaps the dam/ sire were of standard size, but had larger relatives further back producing a larger pup in the litter, etc. Genetics is a strange/ interesting thing.

 

[pabusinesswoman]

I believe the quality and quantity of low protein food when they are growing attribute to their adult size. The slower they grow the smaller the adult dog. Keeping the pups and young adult dogs lean while their bone structure is growing has an effect on the orthopedic issues for sure. It also seems that having a male neutered to early will cause more growth height wise due to the hormone usage for other than what nature intended.

The food thing.. there is a very wide range of opinions on that topic. There are some that suggest feeding Orijen, a high protein. Others, go very low protein and prefer Pro Plan... some raw.. etc. Though I have not really heard a consistent concenus on food, most have agreed on trying to have the growth slower.

Thanks for pointing out the spay/ neuter issue. Though I did not add that in my original post, I was going on the premise that a dog/ bitch would be 2+ years prior to fixing them.

So true on animals not being overweight. I was going on the assumption in the post that these are healthy dogs... trying to rule out other issues.. just looking at size of a healthy dog (weight included) vs longevity.

 

[pabusinesswoman]

Thanks for the post Janices.

So growth rate seems to be a major factor independant of size. Do you purely regulate that with the food/ amounts in your pups?

 

[Cascadians]

Michelle, I'm so new to the Newfie world, I watch the showring and really have no idea what is going on or what I'm looking at. Learning. But I do know what I look for in a dog, what I want, and I was very surprised that the dog who caught my attention won. His enormous expressive very different head stood out but his personality seemed more real, free and happy than the others. I want a dog I can have fun with, go adventuring with, and not get into trouble :devil3: Hope you are able to see all the shows you want soon!

I am very curious for the answers to your questions and hope they appear here.

Cool that your breeder has pedigrees memorized. That is dedication and study! I am trying to understand just enough to watch semi intelligently and perhaps choose a good Newfie playmate for Orka if that is what is meant to be. Most breeders around here are snooty beyond belief so NewfNet is an invaluable treasure. Right now we are back in obedience school and I am loving training Orka and will focus on obedience rally waterworking skijoring tracking etc at future shows. This time I was trying to connect with breeders to put out feelers for a puppy or yearling. Connecting with breeders in the PacNW is a herculean effort and many give up. The row I was sitting in, all the Newf owners had gotten their pups from far away: Brazil, Hungary, Spain, North Carolina, etc. They were all telling stories about PacNW breeder rebuffs. There is one breeder here, very nice and knowledgeable and approachable and she is well loved.

I am sure size does affect longevity since so many dogs end up unable to get up at the end. My Samoyed was the same way, a very healthy huge sammie who lived until 12 but whose arthritis got so bad he could not get up, but lived a good life span and had a great life, but not as good as Orka is having. My female, not so big, died at 12 of valley fever. She did not have orthopedic issues except some limping from the valley fever getting into her leg bone.

Scientific studies and accurate statistics would be very helpful. Since I have a big Newf I am very mindful that he needs exercise to keep him strong and am gearing my entire life around his needs which of course are beneficial to me also. He gets a lot of varied exercise and is very strong and agile and moves like wind poetry, so beautiful to watch it takes my breath away, a proud black stallion and so funny at play everybody is laughing and taking videos.

 

[cedarvalleynewfoundlands]

........ The slower they grow the smaller the adult dog. .......

Actually, this is not true. Adult size is for the most part predetermined by genetics....all we can do is determine whether they get there slowly or whether they get there quickly. A puppy who is fed a quality dog food, but is "grown slowly" will not be any smaller than the same dog who is fed more and allowed to grow more quickly.....he will just simply have less of a chance of Ortho issues. I always explain it to my puppy people this way: The pups skeletal system is fragile while it is immature. The less weight that it is forced to support while it is still immature, the better the chances are that it can mature and solidify without any problems.
I always recommend that my puppy people keep their puppies very lean until their skeleton is mature, which is at least 18 months on a male...possibly longer.
After their skeleton is developed and mature, then weight can be safely added to the frame. High quality food is definitely important, but keeping them lean and keeping their growth slow is possibly the greatest environmental influence there is on a growing Newf.

 

[R Taft]

I don't want to confuse you....It is Katy's grandsire who is 180 lbs, Katy is 145 lbs, which is still large and she has no fat at all.
We never wanted a huge newf, always looked for the standard, which her parents are well within. But I made up with HUGE character too. I thought i had made a smaller newf choice and I fed correctly. I now will look further back into the sizes too. Ronnie

 

[Jorge's mum]

Jorge gained his last 2 inches at 2 yrs old, he is not neutered either. He didn't fill out till 2 years old either- his head really developed after that age also

 

[pabusinesswoman]

I don't want to confuse you....It is Katy's grandsire who is 180 lbs, Katy is 145 lbs, which is still large and she has no fat at all.
We never wanted a huge newf, always looked for the standard, which her parents are well within. But I made up with HUGE character too. I thought i had made a smaller newf choice and I fed correctly. I now will look further back into the sizes too. Ronnie

I misunderstood Ronnie.. .. editied above. Thanks

 

[pabusinesswoman]

Leska,

I still have LOTS to learn. I try to ask lots of questions.

It was really nice to meet folks at the Newf Club that were willing to help describe what was actually happening at the shows. When I first went.. it was just a bunch of beautiful newfs running in a circle I like to ask a little more each time.

Most are trying to groom and get ready for the show before hand. However, I have found several are willing to talk to you after. It is really neat to put faces with names too.

I wish there was a dog shows 101 class.

 

[Cascadians]

Yes, a baby step 101 manual! I am going to take Orka to conformation classes. The black is coming back in his nose polka dot by dot, dots on his paw pads, lips still hot pink and under muzzle still looks like poured bleach. But it will be good training for him and who knows maybe there will be a miracle and all the black will return and stay. He watched attentively for the final 3 ringruns. His head is slowly playing catch-up to the rest of his bod.

Lots of friendly informative folk at our Newf Club too, great resource.

It's not easy regulating how lean a pup will be. Orka got a pad of fat on his back that shifted to wherever he was growing, didn't matter what or how much he ate. It's gone now, but not because of his food. He still see-saws with shoulders growing, then butt, then a camel hump in middle, levels, plateaus, then gets lopsided again. Right now his shoulders are higher.

When he's growing a lot he sleeps a bit more. He's very happy, friendly, curious and playful. We're going to get him swimming soon and then I'll swim with him almost every day. Excellent exercise. I'll be learning to drive soon and then there will be no limit to what we can do together or where we'll go.

Pray frequently he never gets an injury or any ortho issues, and hope his big size does not shorten his lifespan. Every day is a wonder, a joy, a treasure, and I couldn't ask for a better companion.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

I believe the quality and quantity of low protein food when they are growing attribute to their adult size. The slower they grow the smaller the adult dog.

Adult height is genetic, and has nothing to do with the food we feed (unless it is very poor quality food).

just looking at size of a healthy dog (weight included) vs longevity.

There is more to it than size and longevity. Structure is important as well as genetics.

So growth rate seems to be a major factor independant of size. Do you purely regulate that with the food/ amounts in your pups?

Growth plates close from 18 - 24 mo irregardless of what is fed.

 

[bears_dad]

""genetics plays a large role in the appearance and behavior of organisms, it is the combination of genetics with what an organism experiences that determines the ultimate outcome. For example, while genes play a role in determining an organism's size, the nutrition and other conditions it experiences after inception also have a large effect.""

 

[pabusinesswoman]

""genetics plays a large role in the appearance and behavior of organisms, it is the combination of genetics with what an organism experiences that determines the ultimate outcome. For example, while genes play a role in determining an organism's size, the nutrition and other conditions it experiences after inception also have a large effect.""

Yes, genetics would contribute to the health, structure, and overall size of the dog.

I was trying to find out if there is a general concensus and data for the above questions. Or, if it was purely dependant upon the lines.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

""genetics plays a large role in the appearance and behavior of organisms, it is the combination of genetics with what an organism experiences that determines the ultimate outcome. For example, while genes play a role in determining an organism's size, the nutrition and other conditions it experiences after inception also have a large effect.""

This is true...to a POINT. And that would be a dog that suffered extreme overnutrition or undernutrition. For the vast majority of our dogs..there is NO benefit to feeding for rapid growth, and they will "get there" when they get there. Over nutrition will not make bones grow much faster. ..but they WILL make for a fat puppy, and that's bad news.
After a lot of years in the breed...and having dogs of varying sizes..my preference for health and longevity is right around the standard. Most of my dogs have easily made 12, and last winter I let one girl go who was just shy of her 14th birthday. She was never over 110 in her whole life.
The largest LEAN newf I have seen was 198 lbs and 37 at the shoulder. He died too young, but I'm not sure I can link that to his size in any way. And yes..I actually have seen a bitch that was 190 lbs. Although she has some lovely qualities..she is "not my cup of tea". My largest bitch is 139, while most are in the 125 range. I particularly like bitches in that size range because they are usually very good mothers and are not squashing pups every time you leave to go to the bathroom.
I don't think there are any stats available. Unfortunately, none of that information is recorded on the database, there would be no way to track it effectively. Also..the largest pup in the litter is NOT always the biggest when they finish.
I think that good breeders ARE always concerned about health and longevity. But sometimes..choices have to be made and a dog that may not have a particular clearance will still be used based on the history of the pedigree etc. We have a limited gene pool folks. Sometimes you can't throw out a great dog for having marginal hips. (And incidentally, I just had a puppy from clear parents..where it goes back to the ark for clear hips..come up dysplastic!) And I know..to the novice..the clearance itself is the be all and the end all..but it's more complicated than that when you are working with pedigree knowledge etc. (for example..a dog with mild hips that comes from a litter of good hips is often a better bet than a dog with great hips from a litter of dysplastic sibs). Sadly..the only clearance that gives us an absolute is cystinuria. Also..beyond genetics..there are environmental issues that play a HUGE hand in both hips and elbows...and can effectively make or break the dog. IF a dog you like doesn't have a clearance..and the breeder is using it anyway...ASK WHY. Sometimes..there are valid reasons. (Id only do this with a breeder that I actually trusted, however, and one that had some good references from other breeders
Reality? there are also a lot of issues in this breed that we have NO tests for. And I would daresay that some of them are a bigger problem than the ones we DO have tests for. How many times do we come to this forum and see someone headed for a TPLO? We don't have a test for that yet, and we are still not sure about the poss. of it being genetic. Does it happen more in bigger dogs? I'm really not sure. I have a 160 lb dog that has had both done..but I also have a 125 lb bitch that has had one done.

If you are feeling REALLY energetic Michelle..you might want to start a survey on here...of dog size..and age..and include those who have passed away. If you can figure out a way to assess the data...you might be able to answer the size question for ALL of us.