Newf Size vs. Longevity

[PromisedLandNewf]

I don't have any input for op but I have to say something about health testing. Breeders can only do so much...they can test test and test some more but issues will arise no matter what...just as they will in people.
Problems will come out of clear healthy parents and vice versa. Breeding dogs is about the whole dog, structure, type, coat, temperment..the whole works. You can't throw out every dog with an issue or we would have no more dogs LOL.
Believe me I want a healthy Newf too but I think it's just one part of a huge puzzle.

 

[pabusinesswoman]

Cindy-

Thanks for the info.

I am not quite sure if I could set up the normal polls on here to get the data. There are too many variables. I could possibly set up a post to request it, then complile it. I will have to look at the polls a little further to see if I can play with it a little more. Though the data would be limited with the NN group in the big scheme of things, it may be able to produce it there is a pattern. That is a great idea! (wondering how I could incorporate it into face book too.. thinking ) Each question would need to be a different poll. I will have to brainstorm a little.

As per the testing/ health clearances... I understand the gene pull is limited. Though I had a lot of animals growing up, this was my first newf. With the young kids, I was hoping to put the best odds in my favor for a dog I would not have to put down... and .. I'm very type A.. LOL

Though talking to more breeders over time, seeing how different breeders have produced litters with each other, etc., I would now probably do what you suggested and ask why. But, through talking to them.. I woud still want health to be #1 priority. If there was good reasoning... I would probably go with it.. with a breeder I really trusted. I guess it's that confort zone thing.

There is a HUGE difference of coming into this and not knowing anyone except though phone interviews and a brief meeting vs some one who has been in it a few more years and was able to have discussions things more in depth / problems/ and ask questions so that you do feel more secure with someone. There's always so much more to learn.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

I know...and that's the scary part..knowing WHICH breeders you can trust. My best bet on that? Talk to OTHER BREEDERS. If your inquiry is met with stony silence..(my response when someone asks..I won't badmouth..I just won't comment!) And always..if a breeder is not quick and free with information..keep walking. You NEED someone who is going to answer their phone at 11 pm when your puppy projectile vomits across the living room. I'm also a fan of asking for references...people who HAVE their dogs. Oddly...Some of the past puppy people that I often use for references have had some problems with their pups...but they are still good resources for a new buyer because they can tell that person if I have been upfront and fair with them about it. IF the breeder resents being asked for a reference..keep walking. Honestly..it's a big scary place out there..worse than it was when I started years ago..more retail breeders etc. It really ISN"T for the faint of heart.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

And no..not a formal poll..maybe just a thread on it. You would get a pretty good cross section off this board..but compiling the data would be some work.

 

[NessaM]

I'd try writing to Peter Maniate - I know he's studied the issue of longevity and put a lot of work into breeding long-lived Newfs, even offers a life-expectancy guarantee of ten years in his contract...he might be a good resource for information.

His Christmas Belle is 13 years old.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

He has..but Peter has very moderate sized Newfs..
It would be nice to have some data on larger ones.

 

[NessaM]

Well - I know our breeder puts up memorial pages for each of her dogs or bitches that passes away, so you could check those out and figure out how old each dog was...(although you would have to ask her what size each dog and bitch was since she lists their birth and death dates, but not their adult weight or height...)

I know Pooka's father was the same size as Pooka - he lived 10 years, 1 month.

 

[bears_dad]

Yes, genetics would contribute to the health, structure, and overall size of the dog.

I was trying to find out if there is a general concensus and data for the above questions. Or, if it was purely dependant upon the lines.

Sorry about the stray from your original post. This will be my last on this subject.

To all that replied to my post; maybe my first post wasn't clear enough.....yes I think size has to do with longevity and yes you can limit the growth of any organism including a Newfoundland dog through nutritional means without malnutrition. I'm talking about limiting the size to the "norm" or breed standard not to make a "mini" Newf. I see far to many "over sized" Newfs with orthopedic issues. I cannot continue to converse about genetics and nutrition if y'all think that when a pup is born he/she is destined to reach "x" bone mass, "y" height and "z" weight no matter what. My apologies but we are going to have to agree to disagree.

I hit on this thread while viewing the "new post" tab, I will make sure not to enter the "breeders" area hence forth. As they say, if you don't like the heat get outta the frying pan..... Good day.

 

[ardeagold]

Michelle, I think the only way this might work, is for you to send a letter (or email or PM on FB or something like that) asking for certain information FROM the breeders themselves.

Since you don't know all of the breeders you'd like to question, perhaps asking those who are friendly with or have puppies from (should be both LOL) to encourage the breeders to answer may help you get the information you seek.

I'd make sure to keep the questions generic and not pinpoint or name any lines. Just a data inquiry. Nothing more.

 

[pabusinesswoman]

Lordy this is sounding more complicated that I was expecting. It's been a crazy day...so I have not been able to put much thought into it... still debating on how to do this... keep thinking a emailed Excel sheet would be the easiest to calculate the data... copy/ paste it for data regression.. etc.

 

[ardeagold]

I'd try writing to Peter Maniate - I know he's studied the issue of longevity and put a lot of work into breeding long-lived Newfs, even offers a life-expectancy guarantee of ten years in his contract...he might be a good resource for information.

His Christmas Belle is 13 years old.

Our Chance will be 13 this year and he's a rescue...poorly bred...with NO ortho problems, or anything else that I can see. A little arthritis when it's cold like this, but otherwise very healthy (knock on wood).

 

[Pipelineozzy]

I don't think it has to be complicated, unless you are looking for hard data that you were going to use in some way other than to just get an idea. Also...a lot of breeder dogs are not raised the same way pets are...and that might come into it. (Ie. was just discussing the fact that many breeders don't have their dogs as house dogs etc...and breeding males are under considerably more stress than pets are...breeding females are having litters etc.)
I'd be simple about it... how big was your newf..and how long did it live.

 

[jaxson]

I'm so glad this thread was started as I've often wondered this very thing myself. If/when we get a second newf, I've wondered if having a male vs female made (all else being equal---pedigree, nutrition etc) any difference on longevity and overall level of health.

 

[R Taft]

I just spoke to our Breeder and asked how old Katy's Grandsire was when he passed, because he was one of her house dogs. The 180 lbs stud boy was 13 years and three month's when he died from bloat whilst she was in the USA. Our breeder has also had one newfie girls, who had four litters in her lifetime and she was nearly 15 years when she died. She was around the 110 lbs. She was my Jessie's mom. Jessie died at 7 from Ovarian cancer and she was only 105 lbs.
I am not sure how you would do a study like this. I can find as many large newfies who lived to be a great age and many smaller newfs who died young. I still think lifestyle and feeding is a huge part of all of this too. To be an exact study all the newfs would have to be raised and fed the same way. That is where Peter's study would be very good Very difficult to do. I know from fact that early heavy exercise can do some damage and no exercise at all can do damage too. There is currently a study being done on giants who are crated early in their life and throughout their life for over four hours a day and how this affect their bone/joint structure.
This study is being done by vets...we are part of the non-crated giants.
There is a vet who thinks crating might actually be a negative for bone/tendon/muscle structure (not my opinion, don't flame me). The study will be a five to six year study and done by vets. They pick non-crated and crated dogs, who are well looked after diet wise. I will have to be patient for the results. it has only just started.

 

[pabusinesswoman]

Ronnie... good points made... it's hard to take all of the varibles into account. When you get some more info. on that study, could you share it.

I had a chat with my breeder about it too. She agreed.. as long as it was a healthy, sound dog with good structure (ie the structure matched the weight) in her lines she did not see an issue with longevity based purely on size.

 

[pabusinesswoman]

Sorry for the delay in putting up the request for data for this. I've been sick.

The new post is listed for collecting data to see if we can find any correlation.

 

[R Taft]

Went and visited my Breeder last weekend, to pick up Lukey. And we had a great weekend talking newf . Fran has been breeding since the seventies, she is my mentor.
Anyway she took me to her special place..A small graveyard where all her dogs have been buried. I was amazed at how many were over thirteen, well over 50% and most were over 11 years old. There is always the couple of sad young ones, but most were of a good age.
Sadly no puppies to smell, none due until March

 

[ardeagold]

One comment that the majority of judges made when Cole was in the ring last year was that he was in excellent condition - his muscles were as hard as a rock, and he was pure muscle.

I know that's from his freedom to walk, run, swim, roll, and play with other (faster) dogs in his 2.5 acre back yard. I feel that it helps a great deal with his overall "health" and soundness. He was only ever crated, at night (for about 5 hrs), as a young pup. He was out of his crate forever at 7-8 mos of age.

I remember his breeder telling me to get a bike and exercise him while I rode. I said "Are you kidding me? That's what the land, the pond and the GOLDENS are for" :lol: (I honestly could NOT see me riding a bike with him attached. I can just imagine what would have happened if a squirrel or something called him......yikes!)

There is no way I could ever get him into that kind of solid, working condition by myself. The other dogs can make him run, swim and "push it" harder and farther than I ever could.

Will that matter in the long run? Will he continue to stay sound and conditioned? I don't know, but will, hopefully be able to let you know about 10 years from now.

All of our dogs live the same life. Run, play, sleep, eat, run, play, swim, sleep eat...and even go on rides in the car. None are, or have ever been crated except for Cole (as stated above) and Frankie for 2 whole weeks. ha

So far, we've been very fortunate...we've had only three die "young". One at 12 mos from SAS, one at 9 from hemangiosarcoma and one at 10 from histiosarcoma, all Goldens. The others have all lived beyond 13 yrs, and one Lab lived to be 17.

Our "older" dogs...Chance, 12.5, Lucy 10, the 8 and 9 yr old Goldens, the 6 and 7 year old Newfs are ALL healthy, so far. Only Addie has had a cruciate tear, and we found that she had it before we got her (there was scar tissue)...and at our house she had a recurrence. She's an ortho mess at 8 yrs old (genetic)..but still runs, walks and plays daily. She walks funny...waddles from bad hips, and turns out at the elbows (she's pigeon toed), but I truly believe that having the space to roam, run and swim daily makes a huge difference. They're fortunate to have it and we're fortunate to be able to give it to them.

 

[R Taft]

Donna, maybe that is why it is so good to have other breeds with the newfies, like your goldens and our Tess.....Tessa leads all the exercise here and we also hardly ever crate, only for potty training.
And we have the space and ponds too. Plus we go for very long walks and encourage ours to get about

 

[pabusinesswoman]

Ronnie.. yours submitted were the longest life for the largest size on most. They must be doin' something overthere.. growin' em big

Things have been nuts since I got over my sinus infection. I have about half of the data calculated for size vs longevity. With home schooling the kids, work, and tax time... house looks like a tornado hit it. I will try to work on it again soon.