more disquieting thoughts

[angie j]

After reading some of the posts on Ina's thread I was thinking.... then I happened to hear a commentary on the radio that 'annoyed' me.. I think it started with yet another "hair' comment.... anyhoooo...

I was thinking, "Why is this bothering me so.."

I think it's peoples eagerness to judge.

Hey, don't get me wrong... I wouldn't wear my hair like that.. but I'm pretty "out there" and I know others have looked at me and said, "WHAAAAT are you thinking?"

I find it hard to believe that every mother in that 'Commune' has a child that is being abused... How would I feel if I was one of the 'innocent' parents, my only crime: bad hair and ugly dresses.

Sure, it's a lifestyle that is questionable to me and many others, but I know of people who have 3 kids with 3 different fathers, others with different 'social/moral' inadequacies, that are living legacies to their offspring.... what about:
a) People who marry 3 or 4 times... are they more committed than someone who has 3 or 4 wives at the same time?
b) What about people who 'cheat' ... at least the person with more than one wife isn't being deceitful as well, or bringing home VD's.
c) What about the percentage who 'won't' marry, because they feel that marriage has become such an unstable support these days that there's realy no merit in it?
d) What about people who raise their children in homes full of hatred and biggotry ... is it better to be in a stable one "coupled" home full of disharmony and cruelty?

It's all about sensationalism.... It's interesting because it's 'not accepted'... Look at what it was like to be 'Gay' 20- 30 years ago! It's not a very hot topic now, because it's no longer considered an abnormal lifestyle. What IS normal?

Sorry if this is a 'stupid' vent.... Some things about this situation just rub me the wrong way..... I hope someone never starts judging MY lifechoices... I know I'd be in trouble!

Angie J

 

[Murphy]

maybe I am being over simplistic.. But I think the concerns regarding the children center mostly around sexual abuse.. which there appears to be sufficient evidence to support that this is indeed happening on a wide range scale. it is unfortunate that they may have to punish 5 innocent women in order to protect 1 child. I have no issues with what they wear or how they live their lives. I have great admiration and respect for the Amish community. I do have issues with a group of old men who use young girls and women as their slaves and property.. This could likely start a lively debate.
I am sorry though for the innocent people being hurt.

 

[drulzelot]

Not a stupid vent at all, Angie! I can't say why seeing pictures of these women and children bother me, but they do. That is something I am looking into myself to find out. I'm very accepting of everyone, the eccentric are my favorite people, because they have to courage to follow their own hearts without being bothered by societal judgement. I guess one could say I'm eccentric as well, I also march to my own drum <VBG>. So why does thier outward appearance give me the chills? Perhaps it is because I study anthropology, psychology, and sociology? Is it aesthetic? I can't tell, but I do find it creepy.
Perhaps I am bothered by seeing a group of people right here in our free country who are forbidden to make their own choices? I mean, it's pretty hot in Texas right now, and these women in these clothes were wearing long underwear and/or slacks underneath these dresses. Why those particular dresses? Maybe it is the style of dress, who decided that style must be worn in order for women to be modest? Why not a burqua? Can't women be modest without a peter-pan collar and puff sleeves?
I just don't know......I think what I fear is that this is not their life choice, but one to which they started to follow in order to "please God" and have been brainwashed into extremism. I honestly don't think the women have life-choices, especially when an underage girl is forced to marry a 50+ year old man who has several wives (all of whom look alike).
Am I making sense? I'm pretty sensitive and usually can tell when someone is acting "off". Even our dogs get their hackles up when someone is "off", so perhaps I am picking up some "off-ness". Something creepy.

 

[Windancer]

I think it is about the domination of women by men....a nice situation for the men, who have all the choices, and get to choose young girls to be the umpteenth wife out of lust. One thing I noticed...where are the 'boy ' children? are there none? where do they go.? Julie

 

[ina/puusty]

This..in my estimation..read that..Old Woman Who Talks..A-LOT!..is good. I don't think we are looking for any of these questions/concerns/areas-under-discussion...to be ..'answered'. I am guessing..we are looking for the outside ideas/yeasts of other viewpoints..to stimulate our own curr. 'mind sets (do not read that..as..'set minds'..)..so that we may each continue ..along that road of information gathering..as we seek truly, fruitful..healthy ground. Cultural lens..will come into play, faith choices, political stance-of-moment..all will bring images..hopes..fears..to this 'table'..of NN. A circle chat around the water hole..before we walk back to our homes..enjoying the breezes, listening to the calls..from deep in the hills and dales. Good..it is..all good. hugs, ina n HB (Oh HB..WIPEdrool..before hugging..ok sweetie?)

 

[KS Newf]

My objection is the sexual abuse and abandonment (young boys) of children. This particular scenario has been going on for a long time in this group. Otherwise, I would not choose this for myself, and I find much to be sad about (birth defects, isolation, lack of viable choices for adult women), but we are supposed to be about religious freedom. I certainly wish I had the answers, but I certainly don't. What a complex and difficult situation. I don't know what's best for everyone, but the sexual abuse of children is everyone's deal. I'm with Julie.

 

[Lisa@Caeles Hills]

Being a strongly religious person, I feel that a community of persons living for God and wanting to please Him is a wonderful thing. Some of the happiest people I know personally are in Convents and Religious communities. HOWEVER, they are there by their own choice and usually after alot of prayer and self reflection with knowledge of the world. I have no problem with a community that teaches their children modesty, love of God, a strong sense of community and commitment to caring for one another..etc... I think those aspects are wonderful. But, unfortunately again, God's word has been distorted and they have formed a sect of thier own teachings which apparently benefit certain high powered men in the community who obviously have less than virtuous motives. These poor people are brought up into this and brainwashed that whatever a certain "leader" thinks and says is the "word of God". This is clearly wrong and abusive, and of course just esculates as long as the people fall in like sheep. I feel also that a society that allows and sanctifies all sorts of "other" types of marraiges and unions is hypocritical by hating these people for thier choices, but we need to make sure that these really are their choices and not forced upon children. Marraige should never be taken lightly or without the proper maturity and knowledge of what one is getting into....too many other lives are joined in a marraige and lots of people can be hurt such as inlaws, children, etc...JMO

 

[Garden_girl]

On Easter Sunday, an adorable, 11 year old girl in our community, died from undiagnosed Type 1 Diabetes. Her parents chose to *pray* for her recovery rather than seek medical help. Nancy Grace did a piece about this tragedy on her show. The evidence has been gathered, and submitted to the DA. We are waiting to hear if there will be charges lodged against this couple. While I understand having deep faith, children suffer at the hands of religious zealots everywhere. This wasn't the first child that died in our little town because of religious fanaticism.
It is my understanding that this is a very painful type of death, she was comatose before she died and her parents didn't seek help even when she was comatose.

 

[Lisa@Caeles Hills]

Yes I agree Paula, and again shows how people distort the word of God. God also gave people brains and a means to find cures, and expects us to use them. (in an ethical manner of course) Jesus himself put mud and spit on the blind man's eyes, and although just Jesus willing him to be cured would have been enough, he was again setting an example for us that along with being spiritual, we also are human flesh and blood, and need to balance the good things of this earth along with our prayers.

 

[blstarke]

I am a deeply religious person in that I believe in God and pray all the time but some of these religious groups and beliefs should not be forced on you.
Gunny was threatened by a Baptist the other day; this woman was actually going to strike him all because Gunny was wanting to greet her.
The Moormans always leave their material all over your property even when you request them not to.

 

[angie j]

. But, unfortunately again, God's word has been distorted and they have formed a sect of thier own teachings which apparently benefit certain high powered men in the community who obviously have less than virtuous motives. These poor people are brought up into this and brainwashed that whatever a certain "leader" thinks and says is the "word of God". This is clearly wrong and abusive, and of course just esculates as long as the people fall in like sheep.

More on this thought...

the point I'm making (probably very scrambled) Is that these types of behaviors and attitudes go on all aroung us... every day.. and nobody bats an eye ..ok, well sometimes they do; there was that Wako incident...
But people ... all people are willing to be led down these paths on a daily basis: The Catholic Church (Hell fire and damnation), the various "cults" that people are not born into.. but walk into, the woman who won't leave her abusive mate (or vic versa), the alcaholic who won't seek help, the child who is prostituting his/herself on the streets to escape other horrors...
These people have little choice, their culture being inculcated, yes..... but of us that do... many will coose to be led astray .by people who have less than virtuous motives.. Why are these people so different ?

The children are centred as the 'concern'... but often I hear the media.. and in conversation, people focusing on the: the hair, ugly clothes, submissive behavior, etc.. odd behavior, for a certainty.. but in studying human interactions your gonna see ALOT of odd behavior, NONE odder that 'pack' behavior. Why, because it isn't an 'individual' behavior anymore.

I wonder WHY the 'interest'... is it REALY the children? If it is... what will be the result of removing them? Will they recieve individual attention that we would desire for them? The reality is, they would end up in "our" system. In a foster home (at best) and sent into an alien world to them. They would pine for their 'roots' and home, as we all do, and humans have from time immortal. We have so many children 'on the streets' escaping abusive home lives... and what are we doing to 'save' them... to "remove" them from their undesirable situation?

I 'm realy not saying something 'shouldn't' be done.... about ALL of these sad situations... Or that society in general isn't 'trying' to address social issues, especially where innocents are concerned... just that I don't see this "abnormal psycological (sp) unit', as any more (or Less) distressing than the ones we live with on a daily basis. Just more sensationalized.

*** the idea about the Catholic Church is just an example of how 'Power" and fear are used to control people to achieve a desired result. It's not meant as a 'diss' ... please take no offence, just an example that came to mind..******************

Angie J

 

[KS Newf]

I worked on a sexual abuse and ritual abuse trauma unit (only 2 or 3 ritual abuse units in the US) for 7 years, full time, as a second job. I saw children 4 and younger who were used as sexual abuse pawns. It is a concern, not a "concern." There is irretrievable damage done when children's sexuality is misused. Further, it is cyclical. Young girls who are forced to have sex with anyone (let alone men three times their age and first cousins) and have children as often as possible are truly a concern. All throw away children are a concern - (and many of this group's boys are throwaways). It is a mess, and I cannot even imagine what a good way to handle it is, but I don't want these young girls (ages 12-15 to start)to have to submit to these type of sexual advances and give birth to eight children in 10 years (or whatever the math is). In my soul I know this is wrong. Again, I absolutely do not know what the right way to handle this is. IMHO it is definately not about being different; it is about institutionalized (and illegal) child sexual abuse.

 

[Lisa@Caeles Hills]

When you say " the Catholic Church" I do take exception. The Church teaches exactly what Jesus revealed to it 2000 years ago regarding sin, hell, heaven, and the means of salvation. This information was given to us by God himself and the Church NEVER forces anyone into it, only relates the Truth as Jesus said. Jesus himself never went door to door or forced anyone into believing in Him. The reason so many people have a problem with it is because #1 They have a problem with any authority over them #2 the Church REFUSES to change it's teachings to suit homosexuals, adulterers, magicians, or to allow women priests as they again, cannot change the teachings of God himself. #3 Its teachings don't fit into popular society (never did...even in Sodom and Gomorrahs time ) Religion bashing seems to be the norm nowadays unless you a Moslim, Pagan, or Athiest, but really nothing has changed since Jesus time....Jesus condemned all sin and died a horrible death to atone for it. If we really want to be with God in Heaven seems we better try to bring ourselves up to HIS level, not try to force Him down to ours.

 

[angie j]

Please hear me when I say, "I'm certainly not saying sexual abuse isn't a concern." Or, abuse of any kind, on any age person.

What I would ask you is, Where the cases you worked on the focus of wide spread media attention? Also, I am wondering, were the children used as 'pawns' to enter the compound?

But mostly, how does this case incur so much media attention, when we have the same (and worse) social injustices happening all around us, going quietly unnoticed by the majority of the population?

The Catholic Church.... or ANY institution that uses imprisionment in Hell (or whatever prision) is a way of controling behavior.... for Good or Bad. I ask you, if a baby dies before baptism is he in heaven? The bible doesn't mention 'pergatory' this is a way to control by fearful tactics, having people baptised into the church VERY early. Children don't have a choice what religion they are BORN into... I presume most Catholics, Protistints, etc. were BORN into their faith, rather than it having been a choice.
If you use Birth Control as a Catholic does the church say you will go to heaven, or hell, or...
Again, Church (or cult) policy, is often based on the interpretation of men.

Angie J


Angie J

 

[Lisa@Caeles Hills]

Most children who are abused are in homes with a non-traditional parent situation. A boyfriend, a stepdad, a young single mother who is not interested in becoming a responsible adult just because she has children. The statistics are easy to see. Traditional family values have taken a backstep to "sexual freedom" in this country, and it's the children who suffer. Maybe the creator has been right about this from the begining????

 

[angie j]

Jesus himself never went door to door .

Mathew 10:5-13
As a matter of fact... preaching, in one place after another, from town to town, is ALL Jesus did from the time of his baptism.

Angie J

 

[ina/puusty]

Of course..one reason..is it is the 'media frenzy'..read that 'talking heads' moment..curr. 'in play', which is to divert the entire population..from thinking about other, more insideous situations..like the war in Iraq, and the story today....by a very wonderful, honest woman by the name of Christiane Amanpour. Our curr. gov. heads (read that the second in command) are so hot to find diversions..that they are in a white-hot-heat..to cover ANYTHING..that gets them able..to use force..once AGAIN! All the sensationalism..is..for the curr. us gov., a diversion. Oh..and the money drips..which are arriving soon. Do not let yourselves be fooled, or courted..by those who would have you go to bed at night..happy, cozy and..INATTENTIVE! Ok.. now waiting for the whitehouse wedding news to start having a big coverage..IF..the war scenario(Korean)..does not get 'traction'. They cannot start a war..with the pres. dau. getting married..but a LOT..of news time/photo ops..will allow some other scheme..to be hatched..before we have a new pres. elected...to protect us. We have..sad to say..a very angry dove-shooter..in gov., and you better do some reading between the lines..or we will have body bags coming back from Korea. If this is news..or a shock to you..then, my good friend..you have NOT..been reading enough news, with enough..attention to both detail..and history. ina n HB

 

[ina/puusty]

In addit. let's remember..that if we talk about each religion..as being 'set in cement'..we are then faced with a person from each, and every church group..explaining..with zeal and passion..why their version..IS ....the only one. Thats why some of the information..that may be..forthcoming..might better be between any 2 people who have diff. views..of what a specific holy person/said/did/meant..etc. A discussion..should educate..but we should not inflict damages..as we look to share views. Passion..will almost always distort..which then cripples the conversation..which then becomes..a lecture..so to speak. Please do..share the stronger 'concerns people'..as PMs? Thanks much..and no I am not a Mod...so was a suggestion..so as to keep things gentle. ina n HB(HB..I absolutely forbid you to discuss the.. Bone Fairy..trust moi..)

 

[angie j]

Most children who are abused are in homes with a non-traditional parent situation. A boyfriend, a stepdad, a young single mother who is not interested in becoming a responsible adult just because she has children. The statistics are easy to see. Traditional family values have taken a backstep to "sexual freedom" in this country, and it's the children who suffer. Maybe the creator has been right about this from the begining????

I wouldn't have brought this up if you hadn't... but I think there are alot of young boys associated with the Catholic Church that would say the sexual abuse can happen in other places. Places that Should have been a haven for them; By people who new better and proclaimed to the world that they were 'the voice' of God.

Angie J

 

[Lisa@Caeles Hills]

When I said door to door I meant He never forced Himself on anyone. He went and preached at the synagogs, was visible and accessable to everyone, and when He went from town to town He was besiged by crowds who came out to Himself. Ina, I think that the Media itself can do alot of good or damage by just changing a few words around, which is what is continually done to scripture by these "cults". It is hard to find Truth nowadays when we only know parts of stories, and of course never know what motives are in any man's heart. We must cling to the "good" in mankind, and insist that it be recognised in our laws for the sake of all people, especially the innocent and simple people who are so easily trampled upon in our greedy society.