I really need advice! (Sorry...long)

[lovingmaggie]

I'm getting close to my wit's end. My Maggie will be 8 months on Aug. 18. We rescued her when she was 5 mos. old and had absolutely no training of any kind. When we got her, we had three other dogs; one died (very old dog) soon after she arrived.

Maggie did very well in obedience classes & I work with her on obedience commands daily and all throughout the day. On leash, she is an angel; off leash, she is usually good, but has one behavior that is creating real problems. One issue that we have is that my husband has memory issues caused by a major brain trauma. So, he is definitely not consistent in giving the commands. Unfortunately, that situation will not improve.

Now, with all of that background, I can now address the issue. One of our other dogs is a female 5 year old black Lab who was abused and abandoned as a pup & we rescued her, also. She is easily frightened. Maggie, who is now taller & bigger, is intimidating her and it seems to be intentional. She will stand completely over her and nibble on her face. Sometimes, she will corner the Lab and push her back. The Lab gets terrified. Our other dog is a scrappy little guy & takes up for himself, so Maggie backs off & leaves him alone.

Please don't fuss; I really need help! I am almost in tears right now because I feel helpless. I reward Maggie when she & the Lab are playing nicely. And, one second later, the situation can revert to intimidation. Maggie is the only Newf we've had. When I read descriptions of the "gentle giant" and laid back behavior, I wonder if we will ever see that.

I will sincerely appreciate any advice you can give me. Thank you in advance.

 

[jane]

Whenever I get a new dog, I always pull out the crate. I would definately reprimand her when she gets out of hand, but I would also give her a time out in the crate.

Last year I rescued a 3 year old female. She came into my home thinking she was going to rule the roost. She was very demanding and verbally let you know when she wanted!! If she didn't get, she would go and do something she knew she shouldn't do. I always corrected her and also gave her a time out. It took quite a few months, but she eventually got the message.

One thing I did when Shannon moved in was made her wait last for anything and everything. Food, treats, leash, in the door, out the door etc...I basically was telling her that she was last in the pack. Today, she know's she gets everything last and patiently waits her turn. You might try that with Maggie. Make her last for everything.
You also have to remember that she is a big puppy! Like most will say, she is entering her terrible teens and feeling her oats. If she feels the dog is weak she will probably try to dominate.

 

[lovingmaggie]

Thanks, Jane! I will definitely try that! She's in her terrible teens now? Oh, have mercy!

The interesting thing is that when Maggie is not intimidating the Lab, she absolutely loves the Lab. She even wants to sleep with her paws touching the Lab's paws. Bouncing between extremes....definitely a teenager!

 

[newflizzie]

I agree with Jane...Lizzie is 9 mos and definitely testing me on certain things (like grooming and pushing the kids around). About a week ago she started to feel her oats with my almost 13 year old basenji, but Indy nailed her a$$ and that was that. I realized though I wasn't being very consistent with pack order and I've already seen an improvement since I've started paying more attention to it. Also, upon misbehavior, I look at her with a stern no! and remove her to a gated area we have (I don't use the crate for punishment as I want it to always be a happy/safe place). Use what you have though. You are the leader and it is not okay to push the lab around. I know how utterly frustrating it can be - I was in tears the other night when my mom walked in and asked why I was crying over blowing the dog dry. It had turned into a wrestling match between me, the K9-III and Lizzie. LOL it was awful and I vowed never to water train again. Then today it was fine again, teenagers! Good luck, I feel your pain.

 

[JackandKelly]

I was told when I joined this forum (after getting our first Newf puppy) Be prepared to train them as puppies, then be prepared to train them all over again when they are 8-10 months old. I have found this to be SOOOO very true!

 

[lovingmaggie]

Anne & Kelly, thank you, thank you, thank you! I was feeling like the only person who has ever gone through this with her Newf. I have started working more on the pack order & will create a "time out" space.

Anne, I understand the tears. Sometimes, I think that instead of giving Maggie a "time out" that I need one...preferably with wine.

Kelly, thanks for that tidbit. Maggie will be 8 months in a few days, so I guess she is right on schedule. :shocker:Thanks for the warning!

 

[Sierra Newfs]

You mentioned obedience classes with Maggie, is the trainer someone you feel comfortable contacting about this or asking for a referral from? It can be quite helpful to have someone in person for help and to observe what's happening.

Also, don't feel alone. Peaceful multi-dog homes are the result of fantastic management or sheer dumb luck; for most, it's probably a good bit of both. Patricia McConnell's blog http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/ has chronicled, amongst other topics, the trials and tribulations of adding a new dog with her BC Willie after the loss of the incomparable Lassie. If it's not errorless for even a certified applied animal behaviorist, I think you can cut yourself some slack too.

Some resources you may find helpful...

Karen L. Overall, VMD, Ph.D., Dipl. ACVB has a "Protocol for Relaxation" from her book "Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals"
http://dogscouts.org/Protocol_for_relaxation.html
http://www.bayingbeagle.com/2010/05/dr-karen-overalls-protocol-for.html

Books:
"Feeling Outnumbered: How to Manage and Enjoy Your Multi-Dog Household" by Karen B. London, Ph.D. and Patricia McConnell, Ph.D.

"How Many Dogs?! Using Positive Reinforcement Training to Manage a Multiple Dog Household" by Debby McMullen, CDBC

DVDs:
Pia Silvani's "Sibling Rivalry" or "Fighting Dogs: Family and Strangers" (Fighting Dogs covers all of the information in Sibling Rivalry) and Patricia McConnell's "Dog-Dog Aggression"

Several good seminars on play have been offered in the past few years, Karen London's "Canine Play, Including Its Relationship to Aggression", Pia Silvani's "Playtime, The Good, The Bad, The Ugly" and Patricia McConnell's "Dog Play".

The books and DVDs can be found at either http://www.tawzerdogvideos.com/ or http://www.dogwise.com/. There is a 50% off DVD sale at http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/ through August 14.

 

[lovingmaggie]

Becky, thank you so much for taking the time to offer your suggestions about books and articles. I appreciate your help greatly!!!! Yes, I feel comfortable in contacting our trainer, but just hadn't even thought of it.

If the animal behaviorist had issues, I will definitely "cut myself some slack" but will be persistent in working for harmony among the dogs.

I can tell that I will be ordering some good resources!! Thank you!

 

[lacey9875]

It must be the name, my Maggie did the same stuff at 8 months. Even our trainer was astounded. Everyone here has given great advice, and I highly recommend the time out space. I used our powder room-it's about big enough for her to lay down in and that's it. When she came out she would give me a dirty look, go to her place on the hearth and lay down with this big sigh. But she got the message. Just be consistent.

 

[lovingmaggie]

If it's the name, I'm going to change Maggie's!!! How about something gentle like "Milk toast" or "Peace lover."

 

[victoria1140]

we also rescued Beau and I am used to dealing with rescues but this asbo wild child of mine has given us so many challenges that I can really relate to everything you are experiencing.

When he got out of hand he had time outs and there were times when we had to keep a bottle of watered down vinegar handy so if he refused to listen he used to get squirted in his mouth. Not the best training tool but for him he needed to be calmed quickly and this was the only thing that worked.

At 2 1/2 he shows some signs of calming down but it took constant repetetive training , like you we expected a slightly more laid back newf which we didnt get.

keep perservering they do get it in the end

 

[Ohana Mom]

I always say that 8-12 months is sort of like the terrible two's. This is the time when they start to test their surroundings and see who's going to end up in the coveted "alpha" position in your little pack.
But ultimately - that's you. If you think her behavior is out of hand - then by all means, correct her. A "time-out" is a good thing. A great thing to do when she is doing this is go get a leash. Hook her up and right then & there in your living room, put her through her paces, Heal, sit, down come etc... Get her working immediately and listening to you. You are doing a couple of things here. You are re-establishing that YOU are in charge (not her) and you also get her mind working. Praise her when she does well.
Even more important than physical exercise is MENTAL exercise for a Newf. Because they were bred to work - by giving her a job - she'll fall back in line.
One more tip - I know it will be tempting to separate the two. And sometimes even necessary. But don't do it too much. She needs to learn how to behave WITH her sister and she can't do that unless she is with her.
Hope this helps

 

[R Taft]

As everyone says, I thin you get the "terrible two's" (human version) at eight or nine months. Even our Katy was a little naughty.

We have had rescue issues and I re-train a lot of rescue dogs at present, old and young.

We use several little things that might help. Annabelle was the town bully when she came here, even more aggressive compared to most.

We did "time-out" for any inappropriate behavior..........Our time out is always out of sight.............In the bath room or on the back verandah or any room that is not fun to be in. The event happens, we say nothing, we grab the dog and put them in time out. But only for at the most 5 minutes. After that we do some positive training and reward all good things. We do not use crates for "time out", if the crate is supposed to be their "good" place, we would only use the crate if it is the only place you use for "time out". If you have situations where the lower dog does not submit and also get aggressive (like Tessa and Annabelle) the event can escalate into a full blown fight. At that time you need to know who the alpha dog is and as unusual as it seems, when the aggression happens you need to reprimand the Lower dog with a quick say "Tessa No" and call Annabelle and take her on a little obedience. This is the reason why we can now have two bitches who used to loathe on another live together, with no separation. you need to take the side of the Alpha dog, but still make her know you are in charge. Many people told us we would never have the bitches together after fights. We have sorted this sort of situation now in several homes.
Your situation is a little different as it sounds at present one-sided from a naughty pup, so the "time-out" should work, but it can escalate.
But people's "natural way" is to tell off the Alpha and this will cause many more trouble problems.
So again if your other dog ever retaliates and your young newf is the alpha, tell off the 2nd dog quick short verbally, take your other dog and do some quick positive obedience training. Even with verbal or food rewards after good behavior. If you ever get to know how bad my dogs were, you will know that with positive training it can all get happy again.
As to your hubby, the dogs should adjust and be OK with that. As long as you are able to be the constant one. Many dogs live in families where lots of people give different orders, dogs cope.............Good luck, just be patient and still keep training with lots of praise and fun Ronnie