I have a question for breeders.....

[sarnewfie]

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/feeding.html
this has very interesting information in it, towards the bottom of the page. It is not a study.

 

[Sun Valley]

Ginny,

I, myself have NEVER had good results using Esbilac or other puppy replacement formula's.

The cost is also another factor, those formula's are pricey, and you usually have to order them and make sure you never run out....Goats milk is readily available at the supermarket and it not that expensive...the evaporated milk homemade formula is even better then goats milk because there are more calories for newborns.

LA

 

[Windancer]

I do know that the body does not throw off excessive vitimin D and too much can cause some serious problems. Does anyone want to post the formula for evaporated milk formula ? I would like to file it away 'in case'....SAR..my goats milk was the kind in the pail also. I used it to make a liquid to soften the kibble at weaning. They did very well on it.

 

[Sun Valley]

Julie,

Do a search on homemade puppy formula and you'll come with tons of recipe's


LA

 

[Windancer]

SAR..that was a great article you posted. I read the whole thing with interest. In the puppy feeding section the vet said the following:

Note: The only puppies I have ever seen which were nutritionally stunted - and didn't recoup their early deficits when put on solid food - were 2 giant breed siblings which were fed fresh goat's milk. To this day these two are 'minis'. Fresh ruminant milk has 50% too much water in it. Evaporated ruminant milk is just fine as long as you don't screw it up by adding water

SOOO..I guess my vet isn't that far off 'the bell curve ' after all Ginny....There is always something to learn out there if we are receptive..This whole article is well worth the read..

 

[ardeagold]

Also..."fresh" means no enrichments with vitamins.

Straight from the pail means, to me, straight from the goat.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

...............dog /cow/ goat
Percent fat. 8.3/ 4-5/ 3.5
% Protein.... 9.5/ 3.8/ 3.1
%lactose .....3.7/ 5.0/ 4.6
% Ash .........1.2/ .7 /.79

The percentages of fat, protein and total solids are higher in dogs milk than other types of milk.
The formula I use is one cup of WHOLE fat cow milk, yolk of an extra large egg, 1 tbsp. corn oil, and a few drops of infant vitamins. I whirl it in a blender, and strain it to get egg fiber out so it does not block the nipple. (A brand new automotive filter works REALLY well, but a nylon will do).
I've hand raised a couple of litters, and supplemented quite a few, using this formula. NOne of them had any issues and grew up just fine.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

Julie, you are talking about one thing and we are talking about another. We are not giving "fresh" straight from the goat milk. We are using Meyeneberg...

http://meyenberg.com/index.php?page=whole-milk

It has added vitamin D.

Also the article that you quoted mentioned says that cow's milk is ok for pups. Dogs are lactose intolerant and cow's milk, being high in lactose, is not digestible for dogs. That is why goat's milk is preferred (lower in lactose).

Although dogs can drink milk, they should not be fed with it because like many animals, they are lactose intolerant and may develop diarrhoea. Dogs lack the enzyme that is required to break down the sugar in milk.

So I would not put too much credence in that article for that reason alone.

This is a list formula many use...

One 10 oz can of goats milk
3 oz of Liver water (above)
One raw egg yolk
One cup of whole fat live culture yogurt
One tablespoon of mayo or canola oil
One dropper of infant vitamins
One teaspoon of Karo...light or dark...doesn't matter which

Mix in a blender, keeps in your fridge for 7 days. This is a thick formula, so adjust holes in nipples if necessary. It can be tubed. It has 10-12 calories per cc which should allow for good weight gain on your babies.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Wow..the formula I listed above provides only 1.6 calories per cc.

The calorie requirement for a pup in the first week..per lb of body weight...is 60 to 70 calories per day.Second week, 70 to 80 per lb of body weight
Third week, 80 - 90 calories per lb of body weight

I agree that adult dogs may be lactose intolerant..but bitches milk also contains lactose. I think that comes as they get older...just like it does in humans.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

What is liver water ?

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

What is liver water ?

Boil a piece of liver in water, remove the liver and strain the water = liver water.

 

[Ginny]

SAR..that was a great article you posted. I read the whole thing with interest. In the puppy feeding section the vet said the following:

Note: The only puppies I have ever seen which were nutritionally stunted - and didn't recoup their early deficits when put on solid food - were 2 giant breed siblings which were fed fresh goat's milk. To this day these two are 'minis'. Fresh ruminant milk has 50% too much water in it. Evaporated ruminant milk is just fine as long as you don't screw it up by adding water

SOOO..I guess my vet isn't that far off 'the bell curve ' after all Ginny....There is always something to learn out there if we are receptive..This whole article is well worth the read..

The bell curve comment, Julie, was referring to rickets. What you quoted doesn't address that.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Re: liver water...ah!
And then try to chase the adults out of the kitchen

 

[Windancer]

I UNDERSTAND TOTALLY you are not using fresh......I am referring back to the fact that my vet made a casual statement to me at one time concerning goats milk..(look back in the thread) Lots of people in our area have and milk goats, and I am sure he was referring to that..I really like this guy and I didn't like the inference that he was a shade tree...(off the bell curve),,(whew!) did I get that all said right?? (smile) Ginny...I don't know if the 'runts' had rickets or not......maybe the term was loosly used, but at any rate....we can agree that goats milk with no additives is not good for the skeletal developement... and my vet was correct to advise me so.....now..can you get off ?

 

[Sun Valley]

...I have had very poor skeletal results from those few I have had.....wondered what the experience of others is..

I'm totally confused now Julie...your Vet is mentioning rickets and in the above statement you said you are having skeletal problems from bottle feeding.

The next time you have to bottle feed I would definitely try a different formula.

I also dislike the link and article that SAR posted...that article was copy writed in 1998, I believe..things are always changing and I wish that link would be updated.

LA

 

[Windancer]

Louann...it is not important...I appreciate others comments and got the information I need...Not interested in a tag team event again with you and Ginny..As for the article....I thought it had some very good information particularly on tube feeding that I was not aware of....There is always SOMETHING to learn IMHO....some information does not change.

 

[Ginny]

One 10 oz can of goats milk
3 oz of Liver water (above)
One raw egg yolk
One cup of whole fat live culture yogurt
One tablespoon of mayo or canola oil
One dropper of infant vitamins
One teaspoon of Karo...light or dark...doesn't matter which

Ok, this is where I get nervous with the homemade formula:

raw egg yolk - recently saw a report on the high % of raw eggs harboring salmonella
Infant vitamins - is there any standardization of ingredients? Are they appropriate for puppies?

Also, if cows' milk isn't digestible by pups, yogurt would yield the same result. I understand the reasoning for probiotics...

I, myself have NEVER had good results using Esbilac or other puppy replacement formula's.

What kind of problems developed Lou Ann?

 

[Ginny]

bumping for feedback

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

Ok, this is where I get nervous with the homemade formula:

raw egg yolk - recently saw a report on the high % of raw eggs harboring salmonella
Infant vitamins - is there any standardization of ingredients? Are they appropriate for puppies?

Also, if cows' milk isn't digestible by pups, yogurt would yield the same result. I understand the reasoning for probiotics...



What kind of problems developed Lou Ann?

Many breeders I know use the raw eggs with no problems as well as yogurt. Yogurt is given to dogs as well as pups and is recommended by many breeders. Infant vitamins is also recommended.
Ginny, this is not my formula. I have used a similar formula that I have adapted from this one. The one quoted is from Myra Savant.
Pups fed on Esbilac do not seem to thrive as well as the homemade formula.

 

[Sun Valley]

I've never had a problem using raw eggs or yogurt...Ginny, esbilac caused terrible constipation and the the puppies just didn't grow well or thrive till I got them off of that terrible formula...ditto with just born formula.

LA