How to check for Health Clearances.....

[N2N Mags Dad]

Thank you for the guidance. Very important stuff.

Should we expect a breeder to track and array for us the subsequent ( 2year ) health history of the offspring they have produced, inclusive of all litters and litter mates?

 

[Ivoryudx]

N2N Mags Dad wrote:
Should we expect a breeder to track and array for us the subsequent ( 2year ) health history of the offspring they have produced, inclusive of all litters and litter mates?
---------

A breeder should already track for themselves, and you should be able to verify it. While it would be nice to be able to have it handed out with the Pedigree of your potential puppy, there is just too much data there to give to everyone who may or may not purchase. Most people want, and need, to know that the clearances are there, but don't need to have copies of every certificate. That is what the OFA Website helps with. It shows the clearances have been done and what the results were, without having to get copies of the actual certificates of dogs you do not own.

Most, good breeders, can tell you off the top of their heads what the clearances are/were, but the majority of people are not interested in their puppy's siblings UNLESS something goes wrong, or their going to breed. It is primarily, other breeders, and NEW puppy buyers who need the information when selecting a breeder, and to help seperate the good breeders from the BYB, and Puppy Mills.

Susan

 

[sarnewfie]

Most good breeders, no matter the incentive given puppy buyers, cannot control people and have the pups produced ofa at 2-4 years to find out results, most normal pet owners dont want to do it, not interested, dont have time for it, what have you, even with a 200$ refund given many opt out of it.
so the information still is not exact even though intentions are.
keeping this in mind, the growth plates on some newfs they are finding are not closed until 3 years of age, wich i believe is the time to do final clearances on them, once it is all done.
but one never knows for sure.
breeders will do their best to keep track, and encourage/remind pet owners to do their ofa, with incentive there hopefully they will follow thru.
I also would add
there is no known true formula, any litter of pups five or more, will have one or two displastic pups produced no matter the research no matter the clearances, it is my belief that the gene is so polygenic it will never be pinned down, if it can be, great! think what they could do for humans suffering from the same conditions, i also dont believe in limiting the gene pool so much becouse that leaves them open for other nasty things cropping up.
just my own humble thoughts, speaking as one who still is researching, learning, and sharing with other breeders.
many pets are raised in unoptimal conditions, no excersise leads to lax hips open to displastic conditions, muscle pulls in the bones, muscle is the building block of any dog, if they are lacking in it, they wont turn out nice.
i am not so convinced that CHD is strictly genetic and again it is my humble opinion.

[ 01-26-2004, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: sarnewfie ]

 

[newfvo]

My contract REQUIRES all puppies (doesn't matter show or pet) have hips and elbows xrayed as well as hearts rechecked by a cardiologist at 12 months of age. I discuss this at length with the new owner before the puppy leaves my house. If they are not willing to do this then they don't get a puppy. If they don't do it after they get the puppy then they have to deal with me on their doorstep.I know that it isn't a final indication of the outcome, and I know that there are various factors that can contribute to the overall soundness of hips and elbows. But as a breeder, I want to see what any combination of parents is producing prior to my breeding either parent again. This is why I do not breed back to back as I wan't these ratings in hand. I send reminders to the owners and have the xrays sent to me where I submitt them to OFA as a litter for evaluation.

 

[Ivoryudx]

SAR, I understand your opinions, but I respectfully disagree. Most good Breeders, DO get their puppy people to do the health clearances at 2-4 years of age. I know numerous breeders that continue to get that to happen on a regular basis and it is more the 'norm' to have them than to not. Of course, nothing is perfect, and there are some that get lost (for lack of a better word), and sometimes the results don't happen at exactly two years of age, but most do. It is just as important that the new owners get their puppy's health checks as it was for the people who's certifications helped them decide to select that breeder in the first place. I understand, many times, it is not easy to keep track of certain people, and lifes interruptions can keep people from following through in a timely manner, but it can be stipulated in a simple contract and screening of puppy buyers. The breeder I got two of my Newfs from has been doing health checks and requiring puppy buyers to do the same for over 25 years.

Yes, there are no known true formulas in breeding dogs free of CHD, but there are litters of puppies of five or more with little or no dysplasia, and there are lines of Newfoundlands that have been bred for years that have continued to produce fewer and fewer dysplastic puppies. No that is not the majority of Newfoundlands being
produced, but it could be much better than it currently is. Yes, CHD is probably polygenetic but that means breeders need to be checking even closer to help limit as many variables as possible.

Concern about limiting the gene pool is something to keep in mind, but given the number of healthy Newfoundlands in the world today, I believe we are doing that anyway by not keeping high breeding standards. I also believe that environment can and does play a part in the development of certain dysplasia, but not every puppy has dysplasia because of their environment. The health of puppies start with the plan to breed two specific dogs together, and should give all the puppies the best chance of good health.

Susan

 

[sarnewfie]

Agree with most of what you say susan, but....
still it cannot be enforced for all people to do ofa, it just is reality and reality bites.
i also know all the breeders i know of, are doing the best research they can, if there is a majic solution please share it.
we humans also could implement it into ourselves! LOL
the problem lies in different lines, having different problems, and different gene pools have specific problems that require a different system, if it were as simple as the extremly high standards set by some, than why are we not hearing of this solution that puts out less problems, and if it is hips that are cleared is something else such as cruciate popping up in its place, and once we do breed the perfect line of dogs, (wich i doubt is possible, nothing is perfect) what other immune problems might crop up, etc. etc. etc.
i am no expert and always am striving and digging to find answers.
unfortunatly it seems that with improvements in one area, another tends to crop up lacking.
the opinions of some experts are opposed by other experts and unfortunatly there does not see to be that perfect system yet.
for instance here are some of the dogs that are related to sydney, some have elbow but nothing for hips yet.

Noting the date of birth they may be waiting for maturity, but still, did every dog in this litter get ofa?
i admire the breeder that can enforce that every puppy buyer do ofa./
i certainly am trying, but i cannot force them.
ok when i go to the akc site, this litter number above goes from 01-08

when i type in the litter number into ofa these come up, so it comes to three dogs from this litter missing in ofa database.

NEWFOUNDLAND F Apr 14 2003 NF-EL1919F24-PI ELBOW
NEWFOUNDLAND F Apr 17 2003 NF-EL1924F24-NOPI ELBOW
NEWFOUNDLAND F Apr 29 2003 NF-EL1940F24-PI ELBOW
NEWFOUNDLAND M Aug 13 2003 NF-7984G28M-PI HIPS
NEWFOUNDLAND M Aug 13 2003 NF-EL2023M28-PI ELBOW
NEWFOUNDLAND M Jun 18 2003 NF-CA1248/26M/C-NOPI CARDIAC
NEWFOUNDLAND F May 14 2003 NF-7892E25F-PI HIPS
NEWFOUNDLAND F May 14 2003 NF-EL1951F25-PI ELBOW

Edited by moderator... Please do not post any breeder or kennel names! -- Thanks, Annie

[ 01-26-2004, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Annie Milliron ]

 

[newfvo]

SAR

I guess maybe the difference is that I expect people to live up to the agreement that they signed after I have explained to them why I require it and how important it is to me. I also explain to them what the consequences of their not living up to the terms of the contract which is also clearly outlined. Does that mean that I am not willing to work with someone who either financially or physically can't get the xrays done? No. But I have found that if I have picked my puppy people correctly, then they have no problem with doing the things required in the contract they agreed to.

Do I think that my requiring puppy owners to xray their dogs at 12 months will insure that I never produce a displastic dog? Of course not. But how can I get an idea of the depth of health clearances in a pedigree if I only test the dogs I keep?

And yes, if I am looking at using say a dog for potential stud, I will go to the AKC web site, pull up the litter to see how many were registered and then compare it to the number of littermates with OFA clearances. Again, I feel that the depth of a pedigrees health clearances is as important (if not more so) that just the one dog I want to breed to.

If we take the attitude that we can't enforce it so why require it, why bother having a written contract at all?

 

[sarnewfie]

really susan
you dont think i tell them same????
come on now.
yes i do but you cant make them, and to deny that is just plain unrealistic!
and for me, i look at the whole dog, there is always room for improvement, and the lack of fantastic movement i see in the ring today with some, with front legs that swing out at the side as they come forward, are not what i want just becouse they passed every health test,some are slipping the joint at the pastern, and taking the points, not what i want again in my program, and again, it may have passed all health tests, i want a solid structurally sound dog, that hopefully has a solid background, but if it is not a super strong one matching it with a female who is is a start.
and again we try to tell people how important testing is, but they dont always follow thru.

 

[newfvo]

Christine,

Somehow I think we are getting off track. This topic is about "How to check for Health Clearances" not "What I look for in my breeding program" and if I inadvertantly steared it in that direction I apologize to the list.

I never implied that you personally did not ask people to have their dogs cleared. I have no idea what you do or not do.

I am sorry but I will respectfully disagree that it is realistic to expect people to live up to their written commitments and yes, I can enforce it if I so choose. As co-owner and breeder, I have the written, contractual right to take the dog back if they do not follow the contract. Would I? Maybe. It would depend on the situation.

 

[N2N Mags Dad]

Thanks all y'all 'cause so far I've learned at least a dozen things in this post.

I am beginning to see a model of what "best practice" might/should be.

Debate regarding the practicality of it also has great value.

The things I can do at this point are to ensure that proper checks are performed for the puppy's sake, then, ensure they are communicated to the breeder for the sake of the breed.

[ 01-26-2004, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: N2N Mags Dad ]

 

[sarnewfie]

Susan
my apologies to, i am stressed and so is jay about this long seperation, i guess subjects this serious i need to take a walk away from the puter!

 

[BoundlessNewfs]

Question:

Do any of you breeders do a co-ownership of the pups, until they have been OFA'd...or (in the case of limited registrations), until they've been spayed/neutered? If so, does this improve the rate of follow-through on OFA, or spay/neuter, among your puppy buyers?

What about refunds of part of the cost of having the OFA checks or spay neuter operations, after those are done? Does that improve the chances of new owners getting these things done?

[ 08-21-2005, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: BoundlessNewfs (N2N) ]

 

[blstarke]

Thank you for posting this thread, Susan

 

[ardeagold]

Laurel, yes, we have a contract with one of ours that requires co-ownership until the dog has all clearances. To me, that's the best assurance that it will be done, and in a timely manner.

One thing that isn't mentioned here is SAS. Unfortunately, clearing by ascultation at a year old (even by a Cardiologist), doesn't mean the dog doesn't have SAS (Sub-Aortic Stenosis). It might not become apparent for years. The AKC recommends semi annual checks for SAS. How many breeders really do that? And, how many require their dog's offspring be rechecked at intervals, to track this particular disease? In my experience, they don't. The first clearance is the ONLY clearance required.

One checkup (even ascultation by a Cardiologist) at a year of age does not mean the dog is truly "clear" and won't get and/or pass on SAS. But...many take it as such. For example...at two and a half years of age the dog in question produces a litter. At four years of age the Vet hears a murmer...the dog goes to the Cardiologist, and is found to have SAS. The earlier "cleared" status is registered OFA. It's misleading. Same thing with CERF (which is to be done annually).

I just added this to let puppy buyers know to ask about the rechecks if the dam and sire are over two years of age. In these two areas, once is NOT enough to guarantee that the parent(s) are clear.

Thanks Susan...this is all very important information for those interested in purchasing a puppy.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

Health checks, as important and necessary as they are, can only be guides since there are no guarantees. Puppy buyers have to be educated on that too. I do find it odd that some puppy buyers don't seem to follow what is in their contract while others follow it like a bible.

 

[karimathew]

Would anyone mind makeing a whole list of the expected health checks that should be done, and at what age -for their newf, if they were expecting to get a pup to show- Im a little confused here- I feel like I have missed something important yet I cannot put my finger on it! thank you ahead of time..

 

[Ivoryudx]

Puppies, normally only have a heart check, usually at 10 weeks of age as well as the normal health check, before the breeder sends them to their new homes. The parents Cystineria results will tell you if your puppy is clear by heritage, or if you need to test them for being a carrier. If the parents were not tested, then you should probably test your pup, just to know at an early age if there is a problem. Hip and Elbow, prelim. can be done as early as 4 months, although I prefer 12 months, and then official clearances happen at 24 months. Most use OFA, some use Penn Hip, etc.

Hearts, as Ardeagold mentioned above, should be regularly rechecked, but official OFA clearance takes place after one year of age.

Adult breeding dogs should have all the above, except maybe the prelims, as that is a personal preference.

hth,
Susan

 

[ardeagold]

And, it wouldn't hurt to have the eyes checked by a Vet Opthamologist...they should be checked at a year old, and rechecked annually. This is what CERF is.

Also have a full Thyroid panel done...if for nothing else, to have a baseline in case there's a future question. This should also be done at a year.

To add what Susan said...the heart is usually checked at a year and then can be certified. But...you do want to see the rechecks if the breeding pair is older.

Cystinuria can be done at any age, but definitely prior to breeding. I feel that ALL breeding dogs should be tested, no matter what the parents certificates say. There have been errors reported.

Hips, elbows, patellas can all be certified by OFA at two yeas of age. Prelims are done earlier, if you want to do them.

 

[karimathew]

Thank you so much - That is exactly what I wanted - you guys are so great.

 

[Jeannie]

Another good one for a sticky