Byb

[TerriW]

So, this is probably a naive question, but I know it will get answered, so here goes.

Does backyard breeder in any way refer to where the dogs/pups are kept? I got my first Newf from a breeder who was active in the show ring, had conformation and hip clearances for the parents, etc, and was even a conformation judge in the ring.

But his dogs were kept outside in side-by-side kennels with long runs.

They were allowed in the house, as they were often inside when we visited our puppy each week, but didn't all live in the house.

The puppies were in an attached heated garage with whelping box, baby monitor, etc. We were allowed to stop by anytime to see them (with a phone call first, of course, to let them know we were coming). Once we adopted Max, they offered to kennel him when we traveled. They even encouraged me to show Max at the giant benched Detroit Kennel Club Show (where he took 2nd in the 6-9 month class) and we shared bench space.

They kept in touch with us for a couple years, then moved their kennel to a more rural area quite far from us, so we lost contact eventually.

My second puppy (Ben) came from a kennel far away from us, but was highly recommended by someone on NN. We never got to see the pups at her place, but we did meet her at the cardiologist's when he was 13 weeks and getting his cardiac clearance. The cardiologist was a couple hours between us, so we met there. As soon as he got the all-clear, we were able to adopt him.

My middle Newf was a home-to-home rescue (he was 2). She checked me out as well as I've seen other rescues: home check, vet check, permission to drop in (granted of course!), and that went very well. But he was 2 y.o.

So, do any of these situations sound like a BYB? I've always wondered if I unknowingly contributed to them.

 

[Angela]

Terri, in the General,forum there is a sticky identifying Backyard breeders.
I would link it to here, but do not know how to on my iPad!!!!!

 

[miriamstolle]

I think byb is in reference to irresponsibility more than anything, the simple term of byb just encompasses it all. I think.

 

[ardeagold]

The term is used for breeders who breed for reasons other than the betterment of the breed. Usually someone who has a dog, gets another of the opposite sex, (and perhaps even 10 more of each) and breeds them for all the wrong reasons.

Some may actually do health checks, most do not. But they don't show or compete with their dogs, and they don't study and learn pedigrees. I recall one on FB that didn't even know the sire of her litter's registered name!

Oh and don't confuse them with "Hobby Breeders". Hobby Breeders a name for reputable breeders. They're not commercial breeders (puppy mills) or BYBs.

Here's the link to the sticky:

http://www.newf.net/Forums/showthread.php?t=106271&page=7

 

[BlackLightning]

I don't take the term in its literal sense to mean that anyone who is housing dogs in a kennel environment is a BYB. I think the term comes from the concept of someone who just places two dogs without any regard towards health, conformation, genetics into a 'backyard' and voila! puppies! At least that is my take on how the term came about.

 

[ElvisTheNewf]

Just doing some health checks doesn't count, in my opinion. If they let your pup go home at 8 weeks, don't go to a cardiologist, and want you to spay/neuter within the first year, those should be warning signs.

Well, at least they should be in my very, very limited knowledge. These are all things that Elvis' breeder did, but since we got him at 5 months old some didn't apply directly to us. They were/are the NICEST people, and that actually makes me feel bad for calling them BYB (they even have a nice facility), but more and more pups from that place are actually popping up on here. I think they mean well but since they don't show/water train/do much but breed and are not on the NCA website, they just don't know better. They got one newf, fell in love with the breed, and are doing it to share their love.

I think this is a grey area for some people. They do 80% of things right, have a great kennel, and really love their dogs. Before I joined this site, I thought they were great! It makes me nervous to see pups from that place on here. While I've never announced his kennel, I have been honest about their shortcomings. I did PM back and forth with one person about it and we had a great conversation, but it could have been terrible.

 

[Bailey Boy]

For me there are red flags for the first two examples the rescue at least did more to place their pup in a safe home then the breeders by doing a vet check, home visit and drop by visit.

I always rescued. I have never purchased a dog or cat for that matter and probably never will. The way I look at it, correct me if I am wrong, a "good/reputable" breeder that puts the money into their dogs with testing and confirmation still sell that pup to a stranger.

There are no guarantees that puppy will grow up in a loving home no more so then a puppy purchased from a puppy mill or a back yard breeder else our shelters wouldn't be full and rescues busting at the seam. Hope I haven't stepped on any toes that wasn't my intentions just giving my opinion.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

"But his dogs were kept outside in side-by-side kennels with long runs.

They were allowed in the house, as they were often inside when we visited our puppy each week, but didn't all live in the house.

The puppies were in an attached heated garage with whelping box, baby monitor, etc. We were allowed to stop by anytime to see them (with a phone call first, of course, to let them know we were coming)."

That set up is not unusual for large breeders and would not be considered unacceptable. The attitude about improving the breed is what counts (health checks, age pups go to new homes, how new buyers are screened, sales contract etc) tells a lot about the breeder.


"I always rescued. I have never purchased a dog or cat for that matter and probably never will. The way I look at it, correct me if I am wrong, a "good/reputable" breeder that puts the money into their dogs with testing and confirmation still sell that pup to a stranger.

There are no guarantees that puppy will grow up in a loving home no more so then a puppy purchased from a puppy mill or a back yard breeder else our shelters wouldn't be full and rescues busting at the seam. Hope I haven't stepped on any toes that wasn't my intentions just giving my opinion."

Responsible breeders carefully screen new puppy buyers to do everything possible to make sure they go to a loving home and take the dog back if a problem arises in the future. Shelters have dogs from BYBs, puppy mills and stores. Not sure is a pup goes to a stranger, why you think it would not be loved. It is not that the pup goes to a stranger, but the screening process that counts. BYBs put ads in the newspaper and online and whomever comes over with $ gets the pup. No screening or meeting people beforehand.

 

[Bailey Boy]

I have to ask where all those puppy mills, stores and bybs being sold and filling our shelters and rescues obtained their breeding stock to begin with?

I am not trying to start anything here and yes most reputable breeders, shelters and rescues will screen that is still no guarantee that dog will end up in a loving home.

 

[Angela]

I would guess they all obtained their breeding stock from "breeders" who sold on Open registration without caring where their dogs ended up. Maybe they weren't even registered with AKC, CKC.

.

 

[YorkvilleNewfie]

What Angela said, and in some cases, people will get pups on non-breeding contracts and will breed them anyway. That's happened to one breeder (that I know of) on NN...she sold a pup that was not to be bred, then the buyer bred the pup anyhow.

 

[YorkvilleNewfie]

My girl's breeder is in the grey area that Maggie speaks of. Her dogs have all their OFA/CERF clearances, she's a member of the NCA and the regional Newf club, doesn't hand out full registrations like candy, she competes in conformation and a good amount of her puppies go to homes where they are also shown or go on to compete in working events...but she doesn't clear the pups' hearts via cardiologist (just vet auscultation) prior to homing, she sends them home too early, breeds too often, apparently doesn't care when they're altered and doesn't maintain contact with her puppy buyers unless they show or work them. *sigh*

IMO, she's a BYB (and as such, should be taken off the NCA Breeders List).

 

[YorkvilleNewfie]

II am not trying to start anything here and yes most reputable breeders, shelters and rescues will screen that is still no guarantee that dog will end up in a loving home.

No, it's not a guarantee, but I think the interviewing/reference checks/home visits/etc. do greatly decrease the likelihood that a pup will be given up later and greatly increase the likelihood that the pup is going into a good home. BYBs and mills mostly only care about one thing: a check/credit card/PayPal account. That's the qualification to get one of their pups. Reputable breeders run their puppy buyers through the gammet of questionnaires, waiting, home visits, interviews, vet references, waiting, personal references, etc.

Someone on a forum recently told me that "health testing doesn't guarantee a healthy dog'. I responded with "Sure it doesn't, but that's like saying that there's crime anywhere, so it doesn't matter where you move....I can promise you that the likelihood of you being robbed or killed in Naperville, IL is drastically smaller than it would have been in Cabrini-Green."

 

[ElvisTheNewf]

I think this is what we need more on here - those grey areas. It's not that easy to recognize a BYB because most don't meet every single one of those warning signs. I think this is why people get their feeelings hurt - they DID do some research. They DID ask questions. They thought they did everything right and yet somehow were still tricked/mislead by the wrong person. Or a person who really doesn't know better - like Elvis' breeder. I know I said it already, but I really don't think they realize they're doing anything wrong. Does that make them more dangerous? The blissfully unaware breeder? Perhaps - since more and more dogs from that place are showing up here.

I think people assume a BYB just has a dirty trailer out back, crammed with dogs like they show on the ASPCA commercials. Just because there's a clean kennel and a contract involved doesn't mean you're good to go.

 

[YorkvilleNewfie]

I think this is what we need more of here - those grey areas. It's not that easy to recognize a BYB because most don't meet every single one of those warning signs. I think this is why people get their feeelings hurt - they DID do some research. They DID ask questions. They thought they did everything right and yet somehow were still tricked/mislead by the wrong person. Or a person who really doesn't know better - like Elvis' breeder. I know I said it already, but I really don't think they realize they're doing anything wrong. Does that make them more dangerous? The blissfully unaware breeder? Perhaps - since more and more dogs from that place are showing up here.

I think people assume a BYB just has a dirty trailer out back, crammed with dogs like they show on the ASPCA commercials. Just because there's a clean kennel and a contract involved doesn't mean you're good to go.

THIS. And I'd add that just because they're on the NCA Breeders List, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do your due diligence on them either. The NCA Code of Ethics/Breeder Qualifications is a bit of a wet noodle (IMHO) and because of that, people like my girl's breeder can end up on that list.

 

[Angela]

So, what qualifications gets one on the NCA breeders list?

 

[Angela]

Another question to all you U.S. people. How important is it to you that your Newf puppy is registered with AKC?

I am curious about your answers because up here the breeder registers the puppies, not the owners.

 

[YorkvilleNewfie]

So, what qualifications gets one on the NCA breeders list?

Breeder Qualifications:

The NCA does not supervise or guarantee the ethical practices of these breeders; however, the breeders listed herein have met the following minimal requirements:​

1. Member of the Newfoundland Club of America for five consecutive years;
2. Be willing to serve as an educational resource for prospective Newfoundland owners:
3. The Newfoundland Club of America expects its members to make a life-long commitment to all Newfoundlands and to cooperate in the rescue of any Newfoundlands they produce:
4. Have no grievances which the NCA Arbitration Committee has found to have a basis in fact and were unresolved at the closing date for the list. NCA members and non-members may file grievances;
5. Always use a written agreement/contract in all Newfoundland transactions;
6. Bred two litters while a member of the Newfoundland Club of America;
7. Must currently or have previously bred a titled (AKC, CKC, NCA) Newfoundland;
8. The NCA recommends that all persons on the Breeders’ List be a member of their Regional Newfoundland Club. Persons not residing in the US should be a member of their national or regional club in the country in which they reside.
Persons on the Breeders List have agreed to abide by the NCA Code of Ethics .​

 

[ElvisTheNewf]

Another question to all you U.S. people. How important is it to you that your Newf puppy is registered with AKC?

I am curious about your answers because up here the breeder registers the puppies, not the owners.

Elvis' breeder had the paperwork with most things filled out. I just picked a name and sent it in, probably with a check but I forget how much it was. The breeder didn't make us register him - we just figured since we had this fancy, purebred puppy that we should do it.

I suppose it would have been nice to talk to them about registering, what it means, and why it's important. His form was just in a pack of other papers.

 

[TerriW]

My experience is the same as Elvis' folks. I can tell you, if I planned to show my Newfs it would be very important to me. Since I'm not, it isn't as important. But knowing that I *can* register him is important, too.