Breeding question

[Emmy985837]

I am not sure how to word my question. I have been looking at and talking to different breeders and came across one that is breeding 1 female with 2 males, then DNA testing the puppies to determine the father.

Here are my questions:
Have you ever done this?
Is this common?
What are the benefits/negatives of doing this?
Why would you do this?

Thank you in advance for any info you can provide me with.

 

[Capri]

Have you ever done this?
No, I haven't done this, but I do think it is a fantastic idea. Once the techniques become more reliable (i.e. you can be more sure that there will be puppies from BOTH males), then I would go ahead with this if the normal litter-size is large enough (rather than having one pup from each male, I'd love to have two-three puppies from each).

Is this common?
It's not very common, because most double-breedings do not work and the breeder only ends up getting puppies from one male, but still having to pay for two.. plus the extra costs of DNA testing.

What are the benefits/negatives of doing this?
Benefit:
-get puppies from two males different males in only one litter. So in effect the breeder is basically able to do two completely different breedings on one female, with only making the female go through one pregnancy cycle instead of two. And say you wanted to breed your dog with four different males, you could do two double litters instead of having to do four litters with the female (each whelping and pregnancy IS a burden for a female).
-If you have a perfect bitch and you want to keep her in your lines, crossing her to say 4 good males, you get a wider genepool for your future breedings,
-you have the possibility to take (calculated) risks with one or two of the males, as you'll be able to do the "safe" combinations with the other one or two males.

Negative:
-usually does not work and end up getting puppies from one male only

Why would you do this?
-look above to the benefits. I think two litters (absolute max. three!) is physically enough for a bitch, and I would get the possibility of using more than just the two males.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Years ago...this couldn't be done..because we didn't have DNA. Now however...things are really changing. I've never done it..but I can see where it would be useful. If you had a bitch that was coming close to the end of her breeding age..and you had a couple of different males that you still wanted to try her with..this would be great. She could produce pups from both in one litter..and you would see what she could produce with both of them
Also..I know of a couple of incidents where a quality bitch was accidentally bred to the wrong male..if that happened, you could go ahead and breed her to the RIGHT male and all would not be lost for that breeding. (This actually happened to one of my bitches years ago...at the stud owners house...another male smashed through a door and bred her the day after she was bred to the correct male...as it happened..we brought her home and she had been a bit too early, and was not pregnant. IF she HAD been..I would not have been able to register ANY of the pups!)
I can see where it would be quite a useful thing in some situations actually..though every pup has to be dna tested for parentage...but with a valuable breeding bitch, and given their limited reproductive lifespan, it could be really beneficial to have used a few more dogs over her breeding lifespan and a greater mix of genetics...thus allowing you to keep the breeding stock that "clicked" the best!
Another possible advantage would be if you were using frozen semen...esp. if the semen was not as viable as it could be. By breeding to two different dogs..you would not be risking a wasted reproductive cycle if none of the frozen happened to be viable enough to fertilize..you could also breed with fresh from another dog...and hopefully get some from the frozen as well as some from the fresh. I can see a lot of benefits to it actually. If someone really wants to show a bitch and campaign her a bit..that shortens her reproductive lifecycle..most bitches do not maintain coat well during post puppy periods..so you don't breed them when you are showing them. If you waited till she was a bit older to breed...you have less opportunities...being able to have multiple sires would be great.

 

[Emmy985837]

Thank you for the information. I never even looked at it from your points of view. I was coming up with CRAZY reasons as to why to do this. But your info has put my mind at ease. From what you both said it almost sounds like this could be the future for breeding if the kinks can be worked out.

 

[Henrys Mom]

How would you ever be able to make sure the female got pregnant from BOTH males? Unless you take the female eggs and inject each one with the sperm I don't think there is any way you can know for sure if she got pregnant from both males. I know you can DNA test AFTER the pups are born to see who the father is. Is this even possible in puppies? To breed with 2 males naturally and get pups from both? Interesting thread!!! Can't wait to see more discussion!

 

[Windancer]

INteresting..new one on me. but entirely possible. As a kid we had a sheltie that had a litter of 5 chow chow and one cocker spaniel...no doubt about it.

 

[Windancer]

Just thinking....since the seman 'waits' for the eggs to mature, if you inseminated just before ovulation...used both dogs on the same day.....you should have a 50/50 chance for each dog to fertilize....

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

This practice is not common but does take place in certain circumstances. Sometimes a breeder will drive the bitch a distance to breed to a male. But when the male is collected, the specimen may not be that good, but is still usable. If there is another male there, they might also use that male as a back up breeding, especially if the specimen is good. When the pups arrive, the only way to tell who is who is to DNA the pups. It is expensive and most times they are all from the same male.

 

[Ginny]

This practice is not common but does take place in certain circumstances. Sometimes a breeder will drive the bitch a distance to breed to a male. But when the male is collected, the specimen may not be that good, but is still usable. If there is another male there, they might also use that male as a back up breeding, especially if the specimen is good. When the pups arrive, the only way to tell who is who is to DNA the pups. It is expensive and most times they are all from the same male.

Exactly the case with Jill's breeding...she and all her siblings were out of the same sire.

 

[sarnewfie]

I would never do it. But, to each his own. I also would NEVER ever breed more then one girl just to be sure at least one got preggy. There is no way that "if" all of those girls did end up preggy i could be responsible enough to raise each pup as it should be and give them the individual attention they needed.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

I did that once...lol..bred two...YIKES. I had a mother /daughter pair. Daughter was WONDERFUL...and I bred her. A couple days AFTER I bred her...she broke with a raging discharge that scared the daylights out of me. She was put on antibiotics...but the vet was certain that she would not only not be pregnant...but might also end up having to be spayed. Faced with the real possibility of losing her from a reproductive standpoint..and the fact that her mother was no longer a young dog...I had one more chance..Mom was several days behind in her heat cycle, so if I was not going to be able to use the daughter..I wanted to try to have another daughter out of that girl.... I bred Mom one last time. It was very late in Mom's heat cycle by then, so chances were slim,but..we tried. I got ONE good breeding and the next day she threatened to kill the male if he looked at her lol. She was OUT.
Fast forward...I have daughter...and she's HUGE. 11 puppies...I saved ten. Ok..good..I'm happy! 6 Days later...mom presents me with..another 5. YIKES. I'm bottle feeding in one room and have a whelping box set up in the laundry room for the other (Thankfully the older dog was a pro and needed no help from me, while her daughter was struggling with ten.) And can you believe it? I tried to "sneak" some of the ten into the box with her...NO DICE. She would push them off and not let them nurse. She would, however..go sit in the box with her daughter and her grandpuppies..and admire them, and baby her daughter..but she would NOT help feed them!!
I can see circumstances where I would consider a dual sire litter...especially now with frozen semen being so popular. A surgical implant from two different sires would be quite feasible, and might increase your chances of a larger litter. Also, if you were using a sire that was older and had a lower sperm count, breeding to him (by progesterone) as well as a younger sire might help prevent very small litters that end up requiring a c-section.
A couple of years ago at the clinic I worked in..we had a Jack Russel bitch come in with her litter for vaccinations..she had gotten lost over a weekend while she was in heat. She had four pups, and I swear every one of them had a different sire by the look of them, there was NO similarity in either size nor color even though they were all healthy. The owner had been told by three different people in town that she had been in their yard with their dog.

 

[NewfieMama]

Just thinking....since the seman 'waits' for the eggs to mature, if you inseminated just before ovulation...used both dogs on the same day.....you should have a 50/50 chance for each dog to fertilize....

Dunno if dogs are the same as humans but this may still depend on the, er, determination of the swimmers! :LMAO:

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Actually, with dogs..you would inseminate AFTER ovulation..because the eggs have to mature after they are released.
But yes, sperm vigor does have some bearing on that...but if both were inseminated at the same time....you SHOULD come out equal.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

Actually, with dogs..you would inseminate AFTER ovulation..because the eggs have to mature after they are released. :

That was always the way I understood it too.