breeder question

S

scout

New member
First, let me say I KNOW it's a little late to be asking this since I already have purchased my gorgeous pup.

I sent an email to my breeder asking if the sire and dam had been tested for cystinuria. This is one of those questions I should have asked, knew to ask, but neglected to ask. I have a visit to the vet coming up so I wanted to make sure I knew what I was talking about. The answer came back.

They don't test because they have never had a reason to test. None of their dogs have ever had it. They believe that a number of factors are a part of every disease and cited a vet by the name of Padgett (?? not sure of the spelling)that it is usually the environment or nutrition that causes genetic diseases to manifest themselves. Something about too many variables associated with each genetic disease.

Now, I smell malarkey (I'm really working at not cussing here). They are a very nice, religious, hard-working family with good kids. At least, that is my impression. We visited the kennel, and everything looked on the up and up. We asked lots of questions, just not THIS one. Hubby and I even did the divide and conquer routine, questioning both husband and wife separately. Yes, Atticus is registered (with the UKC) and he passed the first vet visit with flying colors, except for a very mild heart murmer, which the vet attributed to his young age and fast growth. Yes, we'll be double checking that on the next visit.

Obviously, as a first time buyer from a breeder, I wasn't perfect, but I didn't look for the cheapest puppy, and I tried to be as careful as I could. I'll know better next time.

Want to weigh in? I wouldn't mind some feedback about now.

Thanks
 
Ivoryudx

Ivoryudx

New member
Well....

Since you now realize that you should have gotten that information up front, you can order the test yourself and find out. They are wrong in ASSUMING that their dogs do not carry Cystinuria. Yes, they may not ever have had a problem in the dogs they have kept, or know of, but it does not mean they are not breeding two carriers which could produce an affected puppy! The following are a list of places you can order the test kit from, and send it in yourself. It is a simple cheek swab, and the results are usually back within a couple weeks. I would sent the breeder the bill, even though you probably will not get reimbursed.

Places who do Cystinuria Testing:

Vet Gen - $80
http://www.vetgen.com/services.html#Canine

PennGen - $75
http://w3.vet.upenn.edu/research/centers/penngen/services/deublerlab/cystinuria.html

Opti Gen - $80
http://www.optigen.com/

Vet DNA Center - $68
http://www.vetdnacenter.com/canine-disease-Cystinuria.html

You would need to order their kit, some take payment then, while others take it when you send it in. I've used Vet DNA Center, and PennGen. Except for the fact that PennGen was slow, I was fine with them. I really like Vet DNA, as its easy to get someone on the phone if needed. I have no experience with the others.

You also mentioned that your dog is UKC registered? What about AKC?

You said your puppy has a heart murmur? How old is your puppy, and how old was it when you got it? You do not have to reply to that publically, but most reputable breeders keep puppies til their ten weeks old and have them checked by a cardiologist BEFORE they go to their new home. Yes, there are normal puppy murmurs, and most of those go away by 16 weeks. Murmurs that are still there after that need to be checked by a Cardiologist and probably dopplered to check for Sub Aortic Stenosis (SAS) or other heart problems.

Susan
 
Jeannie

Jeannie

Super Moderator
You can have a test done on your pup to see if she/he is a 1. carrier 2. non-carrier 3. affected. You will have problems if your puppy is affected. A carrier will have the gene but not be affected by it but should only be bred to a NON carrier. Has your puppy had signs of cystinuria? See Susan's post above for places to get the test.

As far as the heart murmur. I'd suggest when you puppy turns 16 weeks old to have an appoinment with a board certified k9 cardiologist. Have the heart checked for murmurs/SAS. All innocent puppy murmurs should be gone by the time the dog is 16 weeks. Any murmurs after that time should be looked in to further.

Good luck with your puppy. Does your contract guarantee your puppy against SAS or any other genetic diseases?

[ 05-02-2005, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: jggrosch ]
 
S

scout

New member
Atticus is now 9 weeks old. 8 weeks when we got him. He is guaranteed against SAS/heart issues for 6 months and for hips for one year. We planned on going to the vet often this year, and we have an excellent, well-informed vet. We will certainly be having a long talk this week.

*sigh* Having pound pups wasn't such a science...
 
S

scout

New member
oops. forgot to answer two questions.

UKC, but not AKC

no signs of cystinuria. The boy pees like a trouper.


Thanks all for the info! Keep on commenting, but no whoopin's please. I'm beating myself up about now.
 
Sound Bay Newfs

Sound Bay Newfs

Active member
You seem to be on the right track now in your research with health checks. I found the cystenuria cheek swab very easy to do so you should have little problem with it either. If you stay on top of things like you plan to with your vet, you should be able to catch any problems early. Hope all works out!
 
Jeannie

Jeannie

Super Moderator
I would question why only 6 months on the SAS. A newf's heart cannot be cleared until they are at least one year old.

Still you can get the heart check after they are 16 weeks, but until they are one year old you don't know for sure.
 
ardeagold

ardeagold

New member
The only thing I have to disagree with is the "certification" for the SAS.

I don't care if the dog's 4 yrs old, it can suddenly present with an audible murmer...and have SAS.

Here's a quote about SAS:

The subaortic lesion progresses with maturity, and heart murmurs can be detected as early as six to eight weeks of age, or develop as late as three to four years of age in the milder cases.
Click to expand...
(Link to entire paper is below).

Of course it would have had an all but silent murmer all along which was missed on auscultation, but it does happen more frequently than you'd think. And for a dog or bitch that was bred in it's youth it can spell disaster. SAS pops up a few generations down the line and nobody can figure out where it came from, because the dog(s) that originally had it have been long gone to the Rainbow Bridge.

They believe it's much like cystinuria...there are carriers, affected and clear. But they're not sure of that yet. There are no DNA checks for SAS.

Auscultation is NOT the way to clear for SAS. If you want to be sure your dog is SAS clear, a doppler needs to be performed.

Or...you can have your dog checked by a certified Cardiologist via auscultation at years one, three, five, seven and nine...or longer. Here's the AKC's recommendation:

For SAS, it has been recommended by cardiologists that reevaluation of breeding animals be performed at a minimum of 1, 2, 4, and 6 years of age due to the late onset of some of the murmurs associated with the defect. It is also highly recommended that dogs with congenital heart disease also be submitted to OFA for completeness of data collection and to assist with the analysis of inheritance within the breed.
Click to expand...
For some obscure reason, people seem to believe that if the dog sounds clear at a year...they'll stay clear forever, because they've been "certified". The truth is that they're cleared and certified then...but it doesn't mean it's necessarily so forever.

If that was the case, there'd be no necessity for the AKC to be recommending rechecks.

If I had a puppy with an audible murmer at 16 weeks old, I'd have a Doppler done by a Cardiologist. That way there will never be a doubt. That's the one sure way to know what's causing the murmer.

If the Vet can hear the murmer, then the Cardiologist certainly could. And, they'd generally want to have a Doppler done anyway.

Here's another quote from the same article regarding SAS and puppy's age:

Pups with a low grade murmur that persists beyond 12 weeks should be reexamined by more definitive methods to make an accurate diagnosis.
Click to expand...
I hope your pup's murmer is nothing more than a puppy (innocent) murmer. We've had pups with them before...and all was fine. But, at this point, it's important to find out.

Here's the link to the article about SAS. The tests were done on Newfies. Although it's about 9 yrs old, nothing much has changed in the method for determining if a dog has SAS:

SAS - What It Is, and Why Breeders Should Be Concerned by Denise Mankin DVM
 
S

scout

New member
wow! thanks for all the great info. I'm taking the dogs to the vet tomorrow for a routine checkup and a round of vaccinations. Now, thanks to all of you, I'm armed with some good background info. I'll be sure to keep you posted on Atticus.

BTW, aside from the pooping contests the two seem to be having (inside and out) nothing seems to be out of the ordinary. Went through a whole bottle of the enzyme spray in the last week and a half.
 
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