Best time to ultrasound?

[RivNewf]

Any thoughts on the best time to ultrasound to confirm pregnancy and get an accurate count?

Previously, I had it done at 4 weeks and saw 2 definite embryos and 1 maybe then repeated at 6 weeks and saw 7 clearly defined embryos, which proved to be accurate. I'm wondering if 5 weeks might be a happy medium?

I'm fortunate to have a friend who has a mobile ultrasound business (for humans) and enjoys preg checking friend's dogs. All it costs me is a bottle of homemade blueberry wine! It's pretty awesome to see the little wigglers moving their paws and heads and watch their heartbeats.

 

[Sun Valley]

Ultrasounds, in my opinion and my Vets are to confirm pregnancy, not get a count. They move around too much...I like to ultrasound at 4 weeks because then I can see heartbeats.

Lou Ann

 

[cedarvalleynewfoundlands]

We ultrasound at 4 weeks. Our vets opinion is also that it simply verifies pregnancy and isnt a great tool for a head count. XRAYS are usually used after 7 weeks to verify headcount, but they arent always accurate either. I prefer to skip the prenatal XRAY, but will do one after whelping to verify that all the pups have been delivered.

 

[Jeannie]

Moved to the breeder's forum

 

[Pipelineozzy]

The optimum time recommended is 4 weeks. I've only ever done one ultrasound on my own, and that was just because we were getting the machine ready to do a mare and my bitch was running around the clinic anyway. We counted four, and she had four,...but they were HUGE lol. We can get a fairly accurate count in a small litter, but larger litters, all bets are off, as you cannot be sure you don't count the same one twice. We didn't think we had a count with Kizzie, but when we were doing the C SECTION to get the little buffaloes out, we found out we had counted correctly...4 babies...the first in line was 2 lbs 5 ounces, and the smallest was just over 2 lbs.

 

[Capri]

We also ultrasound at 4 weeks to confirm pregnancy.
So far we've had estimated 6+/-1 -> came out 7, estimated 3+-1 -> came out three, estimated 5+/-1 came out 9. All done by the same vet. The last ultrasound was done a little later than the first two.

We don't the the X-rays before whelping either. We only have a vet to come by check the female after the whelpings. For us, it would be too long of a way to take the litter and mum after the whelping for an X-ray.

 

[R Taft]

We ultrasound at 4 weeks. Our vets opinion is also that it simply verifies pregnancy and isnt a great tool for a head count. XRAYS are usually used after 7 weeks to verify headcount, but they arent always accurate either. I prefer to skip the prenatal XRAY, but will do one after whelping to verify that all the pups have been delivered.

Just wondering.......you are not concerned about radiation dosage for the puppies in utero? As I work in Radiology and we are always very diligent about Radiation, children and dosages. Because there are some studies about cancer/cell changes.
Radiation dosages are often not at a minimum in vet practices either, because of the mobile equipment used. And it is often not premium equipment either at the smaller vet clinics.

Another question, would the ultrasound be done per vagina with a small probe or just over the belly area. We used to do our sheep per vagina and get a much more accurate picture. I am just not very familiar in the dog situation..........I use the Ultrasound machine quite a bit where I work and just find it interesting.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

I personally do not xray for just that reason...I don't see the point in irradiating unborn pups unless there is a reason to do so...curiousity about numbers is just not enough incentive for me. Ultrasound on a bitch is done abdominally...a bitch has a different type of uterus so intravaginal ultrasound would not really work. The bitches uterus is more like two long tubes (attached at the bottom like a Y) and the pups are up along those tubes..the more pups, the more distended they become.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Incidentally...when we ultrasounded Kizzie at four weeks (only one I have ever done) I was already sure she was pregnant by other signs.

 

[R Taft]

I personally do not xray for just that reason...I don't see the point in irradiating unborn pups unless there is a reason to do so...curiousity about numbers is just not enough incentive for me. Ultrasound on a bitch is done abdominally...a bitch has a different type of uterus so intravaginal ultrasound would not really work. The bitches uterus is more like two long tubes (attached at the bottom like a Y) and the pups are up along those tubes..the more pups, the more distended they become.

Of course, I should have remembered the "horns"...........Thanks Cindy

 

[cedarvalleynewfoundlands]

Just wondering.......you are not concerned about radiation dosage for the puppies in utero? As I work in Radiology and we are always very diligent about Radiation, children and dosages. Because there are some studies about cancer/cell changes.
Radiation dosages are often not at a minimum in vet practices either, because of the mobile equipment used. And it is often not premium equipment either at the smaller vet clinics.

We dont routinely XRAY before whelping to get a head count, for exactly the reason you mentioned. I see no reason to subject the pups to radiation just to see how many there are. We've only done it once, and in that case it was because she was huge and the vet wanted some idea of how many pups to expect. They were WAY off. They estimated 12-14 pups, and she actually delivered 8. It was strange, since she got so big and didnt have an unusually large litter.
In retrospect, I should have said no, and just went with a post whelping XRAY. We dont routinely do post whelping XRAYS either, but I am very quick to do one if there is any question that there might be another undelivered puppy.

 

[R Taft]

Mary, would Ultrasound not pick up any pups still in Utero..........Just asking because I just want to learn more, Ronnie

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

I have questioned my vet too about this and he said xrays were safe and many do xray the week before the pups are due. Ultrasound will show heartbeats but an xray will show skeletons to count pups. I think it is useful in order to know if a pup has been retained.

 

[cedarvalleynewfoundlands]

Hi Ronnie

From what I understand, an experienced ultrasound tech or repro vet could possibly pick up the heartbeat of a live retained pup , but the problem comes in if a retained pup is dead, since there would be no heartbeat to pick up. What I have been told is that its east to miss one small heartbeat in a large dog. Anytime there's ever been a question of a pup left, we've always opted for an XRAY. I have an Obstetrics grade doppler fetal monitor here that I have tried listening to my girls with, but I'm not very good at it!They say you can pick up the heartbeats with it at 21 days too, but I havent been able to much before 28 days, and even then I'm very hit or miss.
I just keep on practicing.

 

[Ginny]

Repro vets say 28-30 days for ultrasound and they do recommend xraying for the reason Lynn stated.
Ultrasounded Jill - they said 5, xrayed a week before - they said 7. She had 8!

 

[Pipelineozzy]

On an xray, you attempt to count spines...but it can be very confusing in a large litter. We have actually gone so far as to put a dot of colored tape on the spines as we count them to try to be accurate in a large litter, and MOST of the time we are. We did have one litter of ten where the woman called in the middle of the night, because she only had 9 pups and the xray said 10, so one wasn't coming. She drove all the way to the clinic (80 miles) and we went in to meet her......looked in the box, counted....lol...10 pups....and all went home. She was VERY tired and had lost count...no CLUE how you do that. It CAN be difficult to count them if the litter is large as it's just a tangled mess on a radiograph..bones and spines everywhere!!

 

[RivNewf]

Thanks for all the useful and interesting replies to my original question.

One thing I've found important in getting a good ultrasound reading is shaving the hair on the belly which allows better contact between scanner and skin. I agree it can be difficult to get an accurate count and it requires a trained eye.

My friend has been doing this on humans for 20+ years and, because he's doing it for fun on dogs, really takes his time, something busy vets may be less able to spare particularly if their primary goal is simply to confirm pregnancy. At 6 weeks I was amazed at how distinct the embryos were.

 

[Snowden]

How accurate is an ultrasound to confirm preganacy at 4 weeks? If there are only one or two puppies is it difficult to tell?

My friend's dog was breed. Her vet thought she felt a few pups, however when she when to do the ultrasound there was feces. They gave her an enima to clear the feces. The tech stated at first that there were two pups. Then " wait no, one, o you know what no she is not breed."

Dose that happen a lot only to find out that there are a few pups?

She is planning on doing an xray at 55 days and the dog is acting pregnant.

 

[RivNewf]

In my experience, a competent tech should be able to detect heartbeats at 4 weeks or earlier but it may be difficult to get an accurate count until around 6 weeks. A good tech should not confuse feces with fetuses!! It helps if the bitch has a full bladder which serves as a "landmark" for locating the uterine horns.

As noted in this thread, ultrasound is typically used to confirm pregnancy not necessarily to get an accurate count of litter size. However, I have found that a competent tech can get an accurate count at around 6 weeks.

Below is an ultrasound image taken at 6 weeks. You can clearly see the head and cervical spine to the left, rump to the right and paws beneath the chin. This is one of 2 puppies in the litter. The tech even thought that one was a male, the other possibly female.

Good techs who take their time can do amazing things with ultrasound.

 

[Peter Maniate]

My vet X-rays around the 58 day mark. Not only does he give me an accurate count each time but from the calcification he can tell me exactly on what day they will be born. So far he has been right every time.

He matches heads and spines and sometimes puts a coloured dot on each head to assist with the count.

Not every vet can do this. It is not something they learn in vet school. That's why I like a vet who has many breeders in his practice and preferably decades of experience with them.