BluwaterNewfs
New member
Not to burst any bubbles but Cream, along with white & grey and white & brown are not acceptable colors in newfs. Why would one breed a pair knowing there was a more then likely chance of producing any of these?
Belle's pups
- Thread starter BydandNewfs
- Start date
BluwaterNewfs
New member
The dilute colors including grey, brown, & cream do tend to have more coat & skin issues that the black & Landseers.
One of the main purposes in breeding is too inmporve the breed. How are you improving the breed if you are breeding away from the standard?
BTW, the AKC standard is based in the NCA standard. And while some parts of teh standard are open to interpertation, color is not.
One of the main purposes in breeding is too inmporve the breed. How are you improving the breed if you are breeding away from the standard?
BTW, the AKC standard is based in the NCA standard. And while some parts of teh standard are open to interpertation, color is not.
ina/puusty
New member
Hmm..well..it's known that I haven't the foggiest of information..about the valid tech./genetic stuff..but, speaking as a mutt myself..with many 'ad-mixes'..I'm for any color. The more the merrier. Since I don't have a furkid for breeding purposes..she is a companion 'kid'. Somewhere else on the board..was a way-too-long...ramble of mine..about health issues. Standing by that post..I think the color issues..will prob., down the line..be shown to be/living/housing/excercise and lord only knows..what-else..issues...rather than color. For those who wish to breed to a standard..great..that is a perfectly valid choice. For those who may wish to breed for diverse colors..and for those who will wish to buy and cherish the newer color options..again, a perfectly valid choice. I'm sitting here..right now..on the northside..of Hayden Bridge Road. If I 'look' across the street..and then up, and down the road..I can recite families with agnostic views, mormans, catholics, a moslem..two hindus, and about every christian choice..there is. Amazing diversity..and we all get along..on the issues of living..just keep our religion..or lack thereoff..within..the home turf. It seems..that we can each love our furkids..as our choices/goals dictate..without harming the choices of others..who have diff. ways of structuring their choices/goals. If we look five years out..from today..I am willing to bet..there will have been changes..and additions..to all sorts of things..as to breed, breed standard, etc. in the Newf realm..and all the other breeds..as well. As to our furkids..bless their hearts..one and all.
ina n HB
sarnewfie
New member
i would hate to see the cream color the latest fad for breeders who are in it for the money (millers), just like the brown and white landseer is the latest quest for the millers, so to will be the cream, the grey was first.
the millers look for stuff like this becouse people like what is rare, it brings attention and a lot of people love attention.The reason it is rare, is becouse breeders will avoid the match that will produce said color.
oh and this is not saying michelle is a miller, jeeesh that is all i need is for this post to be twisted LOL
[ 10-06-2004, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: sarnewfie ]
the millers look for stuff like this becouse people like what is rare, it brings attention and a lot of people love attention.The reason it is rare, is becouse breeders will avoid the match that will produce said color.
oh and this is not saying michelle is a miller, jeeesh that is all i need is for this post to be twisted LOL
[ 10-06-2004, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: sarnewfie ]
Angela
Super Moderator
Brown and white Newfs are not Landseers and should not be referred to as that.
quote NCA standard - Landseer - white base coat with black markings. Typically the head is solid black or black with white on the muzzle, with or without a blaze. There is a separate black saddle and black on the rump extending onto a white tail.
Ina, I have to disagree with you. I think it's important there is a standard in every breed.
I have a female Newf who is now 5 yrs old. She is below standard height, ie. 24", and weighs 90 lb.
I have lost count of the number of people who have come up to me and said if they would breed them that size, they would definately buy one. Now, if that were to happen, then the standard and usefullness of the Newfoundland would be lost.
JMHO!
quote NCA standard - Landseer - white base coat with black markings. Typically the head is solid black or black with white on the muzzle, with or without a blaze. There is a separate black saddle and black on the rump extending onto a white tail.
Ina, I have to disagree with you. I think it's important there is a standard in every breed.
I have a female Newf who is now 5 yrs old. She is below standard height, ie. 24", and weighs 90 lb.
I have lost count of the number of people who have come up to me and said if they would breed them that size, they would definately buy one. Now, if that were to happen, then the standard and usefullness of the Newfoundland would be lost.
JMHO!
Nicole5158
Inactive Member
I am obviously new to the breed and may be confused, but I didn't realize how big of a role color played into the breed standard. I thought that if you had two oustanding newfoundland specimins who had recessive genes which may produce a cream or brown and white, or even grey, it wouldn't affect your decision to breed them. I understand that you wouldn't want to breed two brown and whites to try to produce more brown and whites, but are breeders who produce greys, creams, brown and white or grey and white's frowned upon? I know that Byron had two grey brothers in his litter, but I don't think our breeder was trying to produce greys. Also, grey is accepted by the AKC, isn't it? It's just not accepted in some other countries. Has grey always been accepted or was it accepted later because it became more popular?
ina/puusty
New member
I have..no problem..with a 'standard'..for breed. Buried in my post..was a comment about those who were interested and concerned about 'keeping' standards..could do that. Those that wish to breed for diff. reasons/colors..(but not puppy millers)..would have my firm support. A person who choses to breed for unusual colors, should have that choice. If they are not into belonging/meeting standards..that is their choice. Down the road..there will be..new 'depts' added.Thats why I included the religion and lack of..as a portion of my post. It would appear that we are not to be anything but 'one faith'..when it comes to breeding. I doubt that the sales of, or ownership of, new and unusual Newfys..will cause a financial crash..anywhere along the line..with breeders of 'standard' Newfys. People will..line up..in the areas of their pref. That is as it should be. Breeders of long standing..who wish to 'keep the faith'..will always have..the original, standard Newfys..and the papers to prove their lineage. I got off the search mode..a bit ago..and was interested to see paintings and drawings..of newfoundlands..from an older perspective. It is evident..that the original breedings which resulted in them, came through..this selective, investigative process. Been going on..for a very long time. It is simply continuing. Purists are to be thanked for their efforts and passion for standards and documented lineages..questors and creatives..are to be thanked for the investigations which produce the breeds/colors of..tomorrow. I think this variety of views is good for all of us..and, enjoy the fact that we all cherish our kids lives..and watch over their health and wellbeing. ina n HB
ina/puusty
New member
Angela..I just reread your post and..me being the 'inventive sort'..marched down that line of thought to..'pocket-newfys! I'd never have to dust anything in the lower floor area..just send my 'Mini'..out on search and destroy missions..then, wash her under the faucet..towel dry,..and put her back on the book shelf..to dry. Oh pleassse don't deny me an 'up-grade' on cleaning options..as I SO..can't afford a dyson!!
ina n HB
Kathy
New member
I think they are exquisite and would love to have one!!! What I don't understand is, Gray is allowed by the NCA & AKC, which is a dilution of black, then why won't they recognize cream, a dilution of brown? Just doesn't make sense to me. I find all of the colors to be beautiful even the brown & white & gray & white. These occasional colors are allowed to obtain a title from NCA & AKC for working, drafting ,water,etc.... so why are they denied a Championship title in conformation? Just wondering...
Leslie
New member
How could you know if a breeding between 2 healthy, show quality standard browns will throw a dilute color? If you're breeding brown to brown for the first time...I mean, you know a brown and a black will probably throw mostly (probably all) blacks, a black and a black gives blacks, so wouldn't the expectation be that brown and brown would be mostly brown? I could be totally off, I'm just a pet owner, but I'm wondering.
Michelle, congratulations on the puppies. Sorry you lost one.
Michelle, congratulations on the puppies. Sorry you lost one.
BydandNewfs
New member
Okay, now this is an unfortunate thing that is happening here. I DID NOT share my pups pictures to start a huge heated debate over the fact of what is or is not an acceptable color, I shared because they are different and many have said they would like to see them.
I will not defend my position of why I did this breeding with the possible chance of producing cream, because to defend might imply I have done something incorrect (which breeding brown to brown, both acceptable colors is not incorrect) with the exception of saying, cream was not the desired outcome. Was it possible? Yes, but not desired. There are many recessive genes that may or may not factor into what actually comes out at birth, there was no guarantee I would have cream, if you go back to Xavier's comments in the thread of "who can guess?", he said the odds were 75% brown 25% cream, but those odds are based upon the exact breeding be done enough to produce a total of 100 puppies. (Obviously not going to happen) And I knew these odds prior to his comments...but for me there is a bigger picture, which I know most of you don't know my plans, because you don't know me. So don't start attacking.
Did I do this breeding hoping for all cream? No, I would have died if the entire litter was cream. Other factors are far greater for me. Am I ashamed my dog produced these beautiful pups? Hell no!! Will I put down a pup at birth because of color? Nope! What will I do with them? They will go to loving family homes, hopefully where they will provide love for both adults and children where they will live a full life doing what a dog was created to do...love. Some may even go on to earn working titles approved by the NCA/AKC...wouldn't that be wonderful. There is so much more to a dog than what some of you are giving credit for.
Let me pose the question, why does the NCA and AKC allow working titles to be earned on Newfs who do not meet the color standard? Even the NCA says occassionaly other colors are found. Is a Newf only a Newf if allowed in the breed ring? So are breeders who are breeding for the working aspect and not the conformation ring, are they wrong?
There are so many comments I could make in return to so many things some of you have said, but I don't post here that often, so I will not continue to stir the debate by making remarks back. I must say, I am not one to be easily offended, and for the most part I am not.
Since the pictures have created such a stir, I will not continue to post pictures of my cream pups. So if you desire to watch my pups grow into fluffy fur balls, please PM me and I will provide my web site address where I update pictures of my babies on a weekly basis.
I will not defend my position of why I did this breeding with the possible chance of producing cream, because to defend might imply I have done something incorrect (which breeding brown to brown, both acceptable colors is not incorrect) with the exception of saying, cream was not the desired outcome. Was it possible? Yes, but not desired. There are many recessive genes that may or may not factor into what actually comes out at birth, there was no guarantee I would have cream, if you go back to Xavier's comments in the thread of "who can guess?", he said the odds were 75% brown 25% cream, but those odds are based upon the exact breeding be done enough to produce a total of 100 puppies. (Obviously not going to happen) And I knew these odds prior to his comments...but for me there is a bigger picture, which I know most of you don't know my plans, because you don't know me. So don't start attacking.
Did I do this breeding hoping for all cream? No, I would have died if the entire litter was cream. Other factors are far greater for me. Am I ashamed my dog produced these beautiful pups? Hell no!! Will I put down a pup at birth because of color? Nope! What will I do with them? They will go to loving family homes, hopefully where they will provide love for both adults and children where they will live a full life doing what a dog was created to do...love. Some may even go on to earn working titles approved by the NCA/AKC...wouldn't that be wonderful. There is so much more to a dog than what some of you are giving credit for.
Let me pose the question, why does the NCA and AKC allow working titles to be earned on Newfs who do not meet the color standard? Even the NCA says occassionaly other colors are found. Is a Newf only a Newf if allowed in the breed ring? So are breeders who are breeding for the working aspect and not the conformation ring, are they wrong?
There are so many comments I could make in return to so many things some of you have said, but I don't post here that often, so I will not continue to stir the debate by making remarks back. I must say, I am not one to be easily offended, and for the most part I am not.
Since the pictures have created such a stir, I will not continue to post pictures of my cream pups. So if you desire to watch my pups grow into fluffy fur balls, please PM me and I will provide my web site address where I update pictures of my babies on a weekly basis.
BluwaterNewfs
New member
Since I was the one who 'started the stir'.just let me say this, It was not the posting of pictures that made me post, it was the description of the litter and and questions several had about white & brown and white & grey.
Since you stated the father had thrown cream, you knew there was a possiblity of the this litter having cream pups. I am just curious why someone would want to knowingly breed away from the standard?
Since you stated the father had thrown cream, you knew there was a possiblity of the this litter having cream pups. I am just curious why someone would want to knowingly breed away from the standard?
Maggiesmom
New member
I for one dont see anything wrong with your breeding. You knew there was a chance for cream but that wasnt your intent. Just like I'm sure its not most peoples intent when they get white & grey or white & brown. I applaud you for not putting the cream pups down cuz "they werent what you were looking for" I would LOVE to see more photos of them as they grow to see how they change. My grey was a very like silver grey at birth and now has deepen & darkend to the grey color of a seal. Congratulations on the litters and may you find wonderful homes for them with ease!
ina/puusty
New member
Whee..this is moi..next move..to pm you..as I will love to watch them grow..develop personalities! ina n HB
BoundlessNewfs
New member
I love the little cream pups...and am pm-ing you for the update page........
alexmaddy
New member
Michelle,
Congratulations on your litter. You seem to be well-educated on breeding procedures and genetics. NO ONE can guarantee a genetic outcome; there are just too many unknowns. While all responsible breeders should make every attempt to adhere to the breed standard in every breeding, there are always unknown factors at work.
I own an IS newf. IS newfs are quite looked down upon for the conformation ring, and are most certainly NOT bred for. Nonetheless, breed a Landseer to a black, and you just might get several IS newfs out of the litter (depending on the exact genetic background of each dog).
Joan..JT NEWF...another Newfnetter has recently posted about a litter, with a large IS female in it. From what I understand, IS and Cream, are pretty much equally unacceptable colors. While cream is MUCH rarer than IS, they are still equally unacceptable from what I have been told. I have not seen you question the breeder of the litter that produced the IS puppy?? What her breeding totally wrong because she produced and IS puppy??? (And just for the record, Lynn - I am not in any way, shape or form attacking or criticizing you...just using your recent litter as an example...hope you don't mind.)
I am NOT a breeder. I do NOT show my dogs. Please educate me. mj
Congratulations on your litter. You seem to be well-educated on breeding procedures and genetics. NO ONE can guarantee a genetic outcome; there are just too many unknowns. While all responsible breeders should make every attempt to adhere to the breed standard in every breeding, there are always unknown factors at work.
I own an IS newf. IS newfs are quite looked down upon for the conformation ring, and are most certainly NOT bred for. Nonetheless, breed a Landseer to a black, and you just might get several IS newfs out of the litter (depending on the exact genetic background of each dog).
Joan..JT NEWF...another Newfnetter has recently posted about a litter, with a large IS female in it. From what I understand, IS and Cream, are pretty much equally unacceptable colors. While cream is MUCH rarer than IS, they are still equally unacceptable from what I have been told. I have not seen you question the breeder of the litter that produced the IS puppy?? What her breeding totally wrong because she produced and IS puppy??? (And just for the record, Lynn - I am not in any way, shape or form attacking or criticizing you...just using your recent litter as an example...hope you don't mind.)
I am NOT a breeder. I do NOT show my dogs. Please educate me. mj
2newfs4now
New member
Just keep the puppy breath to your self or I will want them all
Add me to the growing list of ones you will be hearing from via pm...
Add me to the growing list of ones you will be hearing from via pm...