Belle's pups

[Halli's Mom]

a question and a comment:

Question; How do you get cream from brown? Very confused, but never did well in biology either.

Comment: I seem to recall reading how all the white GSDs were put down in the 1940s in certain places in Europe in order to maintain the "breed". No dog should be put down because it is the wrong color!!!! Send them to my house instead -- Halli needs a playmate!

 

[Deanna]

I have also sent you a PM... I would love to see them grow.

 

[Leslie]

Should we have a poll to see how many people think Michelle should keep posting the pictures (although I know where to find them on my own...)?

 

[Giddyuppy]

Well, now! This has been quite a thread, to say the least.

I've often heard "DON'T get a Boxer if a litter mate is white." Well, NOW they've found that the white Boxers make even BETTER therapy dogs than the Fawn or Brindles. Temperament is much more laid back. (GEE! If Chance were anymore laid back than what he IS...he'd be comatose.)

ROM, I tend to agree with you on the skin problems amongst the Newf's. Seems there's a LOT of problems, right here on NN with skin problems.

So far, so good wif MY boy, tho!

btw...I think the posting of the pics of the entire litter would be GREATFULLY appreciated, but...that's up to Michelle. (hint, hint, Michelle! )

[ 10-06-2004, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Giddyuppy ]

 

[Kathy]

Should we have a poll to see how many people think Michelle should keep posting the pictures (although I know where to find them on my own...)?

My vote would be yes.

I think a lot of us would love to share the experience of watching these beautiful pups grow up. Although, I too, know where to find them if she so chooses not to post.

[ 10-06-2004, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: Kathy ]

 

[newfmalcolmlover]

Add me to your list too! Those puppies are beautiful no matter what color they are!
Wow There are many ruffled feathers here is this post.
Everyone has their opinions. Me too. Mine are pets only. Family members and just as important as any show champion.
I love all newf's no matter what color they are. The conformation ring is always a decision here. Many breeders have great newf's, but they aren't shown. Most newf lovers don't need the ring to prove they are great. Just as long as they are healthy all around is the most important.

What about the comment a while back with, yes they are a champion, but aren't ofa cert good and all the other ailments aren't cleared either, but they are champions?????

 

[Mary Kay & Guy Germaine]

I'll take one!!! You can even pick it!

 

[Halli's Mom]

ONE? I want them ALL!

 

[FuzzyDustBunnies]

I've been reading these posts and thinking about all of this. (And any topic that gets you thinking is a GOOD one because that's how people learn!) Quite a few people have made valid points. Such as...if a gray is a dilute of black and is allowed, why not the cream, which is a dilute of brown? If color is second to structure, why is color such a big deal? (For sake or argument, we'll pretend there aren't millers out there who DO try to breed "rare" colors trying to make an extra buck)

Genetics is a probability game. You can "guesstimate" what colors you'll throw...but who is to say that generations back there is a recessive lurking that no one knows about? What happens if you have a litter of pups that throw these colors and are healthy as horses and their structure is beautiful? Why are they frowned upon based on color alone? I'm sure there are many breeders out there who have been surprised by the colors produced.

My Owen is black. He has allergies and ortho things going on. I love him with all my heart and wouldn't trade him for the world. I would much rather him be healthy all around, but you take what you get and you deal with it. Is he more acceptable because he's the right color? Would a dog with no health problems and beautiful structure be snubbed because he's the wrong color? I would hope not. Using Owen as an example, I would much rather a disqualified color that is healthy and beautiful be bred than my Owen. He might be an accepted color, but he has alot worse things to pass on than being the "wrong" color.

I'm really not trying to start a heated debate here. I know the standards are there for a reason. However, I do feel that the health and temperament of a Newfoundland...or any breed for that matter, is a way more important thing to focus on before color.

 

[sarnewfie]

michelle
i think the majority of us have decided you post the photos of the pups for us! LOL

i would love to watch them grow.

 

[Annie Milliron]

Even with the "dispute" about colors and standards in this thread, I think it's an excellent thread... one of the best in the last few days. It's got a lot of good information... and we can all learn from it.

There have been varying opinions, but they've been handled civilly and respectfully, and for that, with my "moderator hat" on, I thank you.

As for posting pictures, I would hate to think that anyone would be hesitant to post pictures.... I for one would love to see more!

 

[Nicole5158]

I would love to see the photos, too! They are all beautiful puppies and, quite frankly, I'm really surprised about how big of a debate there is about color. I was actually disturbed at the thought of somebody putting a puppy down becuase it isn't the right color. And Michelle, I'm sure the last thing you need when you're trying to take care of Belle and a large litter of puppies is stress from an online thread! I'm sure that almost all of us are very supportive and didn't mean to cause any stress.

 

[Henrys Mom]

I would love to see pictures of any puppies so please post them here if you feel comfortable.

I have really been thinking about this issue and am undecided where I stand. I do believe in a standard. If there was none then there would be lots of bad breedings and lots of unwanted puppies. I also believe that structure is always prefered over color. I guess since cream is a dilute of brown then why isn't it accepted? Maybe that is something that the AKC has to look into. We have black, brown, grey and landseer, maybe we should also have cream. I don't know enough about genetics to know how this color has popped up in the Newf. I also think the irish spotted is an acceptable color since it is a black newf with white markings. There was an IS at Westminster this year, I think his name was Chewy.

I think this topic is a great one and I would love for other breeders and geneticist write and tell what they think. I do not in any way think any of this is a dig towards Michelle or her pups, but it is turning into a learning process and I think that is good.

I am going to watch these pups grow up because I just love puppies!!!

 

[ardeagold]

The last thing I want to do is get into a discussion about color and what the breed standard is. Newfs aren't the only breed dealing with color issues...and all I can say is that it's generally more of a political (or popular) issue, than a "what's right or wrong" issue.

The puppies are beautiful, and I'm sure will be just as "useful" (for lack of a better term) as any other Newf. They just can't be shown...oh well. They're still Newfs, with the same heritage as their parents and hopefully the same good health and temperment!

I can't wait to see them grow up...do their Newfy things and live long, happy, wonderful lives!! Color won't impact that in any way, nor will it impact their "ability to do the job they're designed to do".

MORE PICTURES!!!

 

[Ivoryudx]

I have no idea what Michelle intended with this particular breeding, so my remarks are not meant to offend. Just my personal opinions, as Michelle’s breeding decisions are hers.

I understand and agree that all puppies are wonderful, beautiful and equally deserving of good homes, and deserve all the love they can tolerate. But I do disagree with anyone ‘knowingly’ breeding for colors or a combination of colors that are not to standard. This is my opinion because, I truly believe every breeding should be planned with the goal of creating a entire litter of puppies that are better than the parents. Not breeding for the chance of getting one shining star out of the whole litter.

Yes, genetics can be a gamble, but breeding together a male and a female of known colors, and known recessives in their heritage or offspring already produced, gives the breeder the knowledge of what will probably be produced. Yes, accidental recessives can crop up many generations later, but that is a different topic. When there are KNOWN recessives being bred together, and knowingly producing colors not to standard, the nonstandard colored puppies automatically are not eligible to prove their full potential in comparison to their littermates of acceptable color.

Why would a breeder take the chance that the most perfect puppy in the litter, health, structure, attitude, personality be of a color that could not be shown as a great specimen of the breed? On the other hand, if a breeder does not show in Conformation, but intentionally produces a color not recognized by the standard, what is there to gain? Was it truly done because those two particular dogs were perfect for breeding together, and there were no other options? Maybe the same could be accomplished in two or three generations of different breeding decisions with better odds for color.

Breeding decisions are not easy. One question every breeder has to decide on: Is this a breeding that is truly necessary, and will it create puppies better than their parents?

Why is a breeder, breeding? To better their lines? The entire litter reflects on the breeding pair and the breeder, not just one or two from a litter.

JMO,

Susan

 

[piercjo]

Originally posted by MichelleG:
Hi everyone....I will try to get some pictures on in the morning.

Belle had her pups last night (Sunday) through the nite. She had 10 pups. 6 boys 4 brown boys 2 cream boys, lost one cream boy during delivery

. 4 girls 3 brown 1 cream. All are nice sized between 1 1/4+ to 1 1/2. All nursing and doing well today. Belle is doing great also. Pictures will follow in the morning.

Michelle

 

[BluwaterNewfs]

First let me repeat this -- my comments had nothing to do with the pictures and had no pictures been posted I probalby would have still asked the question. I never said anything negative about posting pictures.

Second - I never said anything about putting down any pup because of color. I would never do that or say that.

Third - I certainly realize that in breeding there are certain gambles you take. While is not considered acceptable, there is question as to whether any white (like a blaze on the chest) on an otherwise solid newf is IS or not. This may be a fine line, I'll admit, but one you can get by with. I don't know if I would breed a pair mostly likely to produce IS, and this is different to me than ' is possible' to produce IS. And while grey may not be the desired color, it is an acceptable color.

Sue (IvoryUDX) thank you putting into words what I have been sitting here struggling to do. It certainly was not my intentions to offend anybody.